This mail archive is the complete (as far as I know) communication
between myself and the NetBSD core between December 15 (when they
removed all my NetBSD access) and the day OpenBSD was formed.  It
actually goes a little further beyond that time, and includes mail
from a few other people involved in the negotiations.

This archive makes it clear that I tried everything I could to avoid
having to form a seperate project, but that the NetBSD core holds the
complete responsibility for the need and creation of OpenBSD, another
splinter group.

After my access was revokes, I struggled for 7 months to get access to
the CVS tree back. I was told to agree to things others did not have
to, to wait for an agreement document -- it's all in the archive. It
was suggested that I merge my 19,000 lines of diffs by mailing them to
an individual who would merge them. The entire affair was ridiculous.

Those people are
	Charles Hannum
	Chris Demetriou
	JT Conklin
	Paul Kranenburg
	Adam Glass
There are newer NetBSD core members, but they have done nothing to
change the situation.

The mail contained in this archive is used under the principle of
`fair use' because my life and name have been massively affected by
the contents here-in.  I have been personally slandered, and people
have been lied to about why OpenBSD exists. I religiously archive mail
now.  It has gone so far that upon visiting companies in Silicon Valley,
I have met people who said they'd heard of something bad in association
with my name.

If anything is missing from this archive feel free to send it to me.
I would love to have and incorporate anything else. As far as I know
this archive is complete, but.. things slip sometimes.  I have left out
many pieces which I cannot forward without compromising the person who
forwarded me the mail; I have left nothing out that I sent or core sent
to me.

The NetBSD core have read this document; I have ftp archives to show so.
They have never made any direct comment on it, but people have told me
that they got very angry.

An earlier version of this archive was unsorted, and difficult to
track.  I wish this was easier to follow, but it is lengthy. 

To read this in order, do:

	more ? ?? ???

Start of archive

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echo x - 1
sed 's/^X//' >1 << 'END-of-1'
XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU by fsa.ca (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA14296; Tue, 20 Dec 94 06:46:27 MST
XMessage-Id: <9412201346.AA14296@fsa.ca>
XReceived: from localhost by LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU id aa28111;
X          20 Dec 94 8:45 EST
XTo: deraadt@fsa.ca
XCc: cgd@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU, core@netbsd.org
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1994, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XDate: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 08:45:43 -0500
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
XTheo,
X
XOver the past year and a half, we have received a considerable number
Xof complaints about the fact that you seem to harass and abuse both
Xusers and developers of NetBSD.  At various times, some of us have
Xsuggested (with varying levels of severity) that you cease this
Xbehaviour, but this has been ineffective.  Indeed, you have given us
Xscant reason to believe that your behaviour is ever going to change
Xfor the better.
X
XYour abusive actions have seriously impaired the success of the NetBSD
Xproject in several ways.  Your actions have driven away developers or
Xpotential developers, and have alienated many users.  They have also
Xsquandered much of the good will that various people have directed at
Xthe project.
X
XFinally, it is clear that for the project to be a success, we must
Xpromote a positive environment for both users and developers.  If we
Xcontinue to allow you, an official representative of the NetBSD
Xproject, to behave in this manner, we create the perception that we
Xapprove of your behaviour.  That perception is damaging to the project
Xand cannot be allowed to persist.
X
X
XBecause of these things, we believe that it would be in the best
Xinterest of the NetBSD project if you were to resign all official
Xassociation with the project.  We request that you resign from the
XNetBSD core team, resign as the maintainer of the NetBSD SPARC port,
Xand post a message to the "netbsd-users", "current-users", and
X"port-sparc" mailing lists announcing your resignation.  If you choose
Xnot to post such an announcement within one day (by 9:00AM, 12/21/94),
Xwe will be forced to inform the public about your removal from the
Xorganization ourselves.
X
XWe regret having to do this, because you have done a significant
Xamount of very good work for the project.  In spite of that, we can no
Xlonger condone your behaviour.  We wish for this parting to be as
Xpainless as possible; we have disabled your accounts on the NetBSD
Xdevelopment machines and have removed you from the "core" and
X"port-masters" mailing lists, but have left your subscriptions to
Xother NetBSD mailing lists untouched.  We have no objection to your
Xfurther participation in NetBSD, as long as you participate in a
Xmature manner and make clear the fact that you no longer officially
Xrepresent the NetBSD Project.
X
X
XThank you for your cooperation.
X
X
XThe NetBSD Core Group (in alphabetical order)
XJ.T. Conklin
XChris Demetriou
XAdam Glass
XCharles Hannum
XPaul Kranenburg
END-of-1
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sed 's/^X//' >2 << 'END-of-2'
XReturn-Path: owner-netbsd-users@NetBSD.ORG
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from pain.lcs.mit.edu by fsa.ca (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA06529; Fri, 23 Dec 94 12:35:37 MST
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XMessage-Id: <199412231926.LAA15135@sun-lamp.cs.berkeley.edu>
XX-Authentication-Warning: sun-lamp.cs.berkeley.edu: Host LOCALHOST didn't use HELO protocol
XTo: netbsd-users@NetBSD.ORG
XSubject: Theo De Raadt
XDate: Fri, 23 Dec 1994 11:26:09 -0800
XFrom: Adam Glass 
XSender: owner-netbsd-users@NetBSD.ORG
XPrecedence: list
XX-Loop: netbsd-users@NetBSD.ORG
XStatus: O
X
X
XOn December 20, Theo de Raadt was asked to resign from the NetBSD
XProject by the remaining members of 'core'.  This was a very difficult
Xdecision to make, and resulted from Theo's long history of rudeness
Xtowards and abuse of users and developers of NetBSD.  We believe that
Xthere is no place for that type of behaviour from representatives
Xof the NetBSD Project, and that, overall, it has been damaging to the
Xproject.
X
XThis decision was difficult to make because Theo has a long history of
Xpositive contributions to the project.  He was the principal caretaker
Xof NetBSD's SPARC support, and has written too much code to mention.
XWe are certainly willing to accept (and would very much like to see)
Xfuture contributions from Theo, but we believe that it is
Xinappropriate for him to be an "official" representative of the
Xproject any longer.
X
XPlease direct replies to core@NetBSD.ORG.
X
Xlater,
XAdam Glass
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XReturn-Path: pk@cs.few.eur.nl
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from fsa.ca (newt.fsa.ca) by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA05948; Sat, 11 Feb 95 14:00:59 MST
XReceived: from cs.few.eur.nl (kaa.cs.few.eur.nl) by fsa.ca (4.1/fsa1.0)
X	id AA09018; Sat, 11 Feb 95 14:00:51 MST
XReceived: by cs.few.eur.nl (5.67/EUR)
X	id AA10381; Sat, 11 Feb 95 22:00:44 +0100
XFrom: Paul Kranenburg 
XMessage-Id: <9502112100.AA10381@cs.few.eur.nl>
XSubject: 
XTo: deraadt@fsa.ca (Theo de Raadt)
XDate: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 22:00:43 +0100 (MET)
XIn-Reply-To: <9412091853.AA04560@fsa.ca> from "Theo de Raadt" at Dec 9, 94 11:53:39 am
XX-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL13]
XMime-Version: 1.0
XContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
XContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
XContent-Length: 374       
X
XHello Theo,
X
XI hope you're not too bothered receiving mail from me, bit I do feel
XI should communicate.
X
XI hear from Chuck you keep on doing bits on the sparc port and I was
Xpleased to hear it. Actually, `relieved' is even a better description.
X
XWell, that's all I wanted to say at the moment really. Whatever your
Xfeelings may be, I just had to get this off my chest.
X
X-pk
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XReplied: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:55:23 -0700
XReplied: "Paul Kranenburg  "
XReturn-Path: pk@cs.few.eur.nl
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from cs.few.eur.nl (kaa.cs.few.eur.nl) by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA07789; Mon, 13 Mar 95 02:20:06 MST
XReceived: by cs.few.eur.nl (5.67/EUR)
X	id AA17760; Mon, 13 Mar 95 10:20:08 +0100
XDate: Mon, 13 Mar 95 10:20:08 +0100
XFrom: Paul Kranenburg 
XMessage-Id: <9503130920.AA17760@cs.few.eur.nl>
XTo: deraadt@theos.com
X
XYou know, communication between you and me has mostly been routed through
XChuck until now. I've responded to remarks that have reached me by responding
Xto Chuck again. I will no longer do this as this is not at all helpful when it
Xcomes to knowing what has been said when and by whom. I suggest we talk
Xdirectly; this is the only way repairs can be achieved anyway.
X
X
XIn reponse to your remark on cvs access, I replied that you cannot expect
Xthis to happen without you and all of core talking to eachother in a
Xcollected and rational fashion. Chris has responded in a similar way.
XI also said that I do *not* expect you to seek "absolution" in case you would
Xbe interpreting "we need to talk first, and that might take some time" that
Xway. To repeat myself, it just means: restore normal contacts with all of us,
Xand things will work out one way or another. What *more* can I say?
XThis will also enable coordination on actual technical work being done
X(re: the scsi thing), which is a highly unfortunate incident that I feel 
Xcould have easily been avoided by getting in touch with *me* (as the
Xsparc port maintainer, and not as anything else).
X
X-pk
X
XPS. I want to express my thanks to Chuck for acting as a moderator in the last
Xmonths. I surely hope it will pay off.
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XReplied: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 14:28:07 -0700
XReplied: "Paul Kranenburg  "
XReplied: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 14:10:59 -0700
XReplied: "Paul Kranenburg  "
XReturn-Path: pk@cs.few.eur.nl
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from cs.few.eur.nl (kaa.cs.few.eur.nl) by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA10988; Mon, 13 Mar 95 13:58:38 MST
XReceived: by cs.few.eur.nl (5.67/EUR)
X	id AA15700; Mon, 13 Mar 95 21:58:39 +0100
XDate: Mon, 13 Mar 95 21:58:39 +0100
XFrom: Paul Kranenburg 
XMessage-Id: <9503132058.AA15700@cs.few.eur.nl>
XTo: deraadt@theos.com
X
X> It is therefore VERY hard for me to get back up to talking about
X> non-technical things. Such a hardline attitude has hurt my feelings
X> too much.
X> 
X> [..]
X> And how would you characterize such a "normal contact"? 
X> 
XTalk about just technical things then, if you feel like it. I would
Xappreciate that, and I'm sure others would too.
X
X
X> I'm still shocked that anyone should be at all annoyed or even worried
X> that I did a scsi driver for kicks, for myself and for Chuck.  There
X> isn't any reason why I should have let you know -- really. I did it
X> for my own pleasure, and at this stage in the game the diffs between
X> what I have in my tree are so large that it might as well be a
X> different tree. I seriously did consider creating a new *BSD
X> distribution just over a month ago, but bandwidth limits me. Have you
X> forgotten why I work on this stuff? For fun. I cannot believe anyone
X> was foolish enough to expect I'd tell them about something I was
X> writing for fun.
X> 
XAnd what do you think _I_ do it for? For fun. Why do you think I excepted
Xbeing port-master now, while I'm already swamped with other work? Because I
Xcare, and like to see NetBSD become a success. Nobody forces me. Neither
Xdoes anybody force you or Chuck or anyone else. You either feel like
Xcontributing or you don't. If you are, then I feel it is a natural
Xconsequence to let the port-master do a little bit of co-ordinating...
XApperently, if such co-ordination is temporarily ineffective, for whatever
Xreason, people sometimes do come down inappropriately hard on eachother. (sigh)
X
X>  [...]
X> I don't mean to be rude, but I must be direct -- how could you even
X> have stood by and let such a thing happen?
X> 
X
XI'll be direct too: don't indulge yourself into thinking that "core" or
Xanyone else is ganging up against you. It is simply not true. I don't
Xfeel like analyzing everything that's happened, again. What I *do* know
Xis that it's possible to draw a line and start again and hope for the best.
XAnd I can say this with some authority 'cause I've had to so myself in
Xthe past...
X
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XReturn-Path: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from pain.lcs.mit.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA13003; Thu, 20 Apr 95 12:26:11 MDT
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XDate: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 13:05:37 -0400
XMessage-Id: <199504201705.NAA09242@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
XFrom: "Charles M. Hannum" 
XTo: johns@cs.umr.edu
XCc: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XIn-Reply-To: <199504201639.LAA01874@orion.cs.umr.edu> (message from John Stone on Thu, 20 Apr 1995 11:39:45 -0500 (CDT))
XSubject: Re: Sparc 20 ?
XSender: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XPrecedence: list
XX-Loop: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
X
X
X   Does anyone else even _care_ about having working 4/x00 code???
X
XCertainly.  However, there's a reason Theo doesn't have direct access
Xto the CVS tree, and it's not appropriate to discuss it publically.
X
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XReturn-Path: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
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X	id AA13676; Thu, 20 Apr 95 13:45:21 MDT
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XReceived: by cs.few.eur.nl (5.67/EUR)
X	id AA21100; Thu, 20 Apr 95 20:14:59 +0200
XDate: Thu, 20 Apr 95 20:14:59 +0200
XFrom: Paul Kranenburg 
XMessage-Id: <9504201814.AA21100@cs.few.eur.nl>
XTo: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG, johns@cs.umr.edu
XSubject: Re: Sparc 20 ?
XSender: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XPrecedence: list
XX-Loop: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
X
X> Does anyone else even _care_ about having working 4/x00 code???
X
XI certainly care. Just make it available..
X
X> So there it is.  Flame me if you must, but after spending a TON of my time
X> helping debug, test, and write fixes for the 4/x00 machines, I want to 
X> see it in the tree!
X
XAgain, I'd be perfectly happy to put your contributions in the tree, and
Xthere are ways to get them there: there's the port-sparc mailing list
Xand portmaster's email address to name just two. Now, it's just possible
Xthat those aren't really practical for the stuff you have at hand. In
Xthat case we'll have to think of something else. I'll be in touch.
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XReplied: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 15:32:44 -0600
XReplied: "Paul Kranenburg  johns@cs.umr.edu, chuck@theos.com, deraadt@theos.com"
XReturn-Path: pk@cs.few.eur.nl
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from cs.few.eur.nl (kaa.cs.few.eur.nl) by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA13746; Thu, 20 Apr 95 14:03:17 MDT
XReceived: by cs.few.eur.nl (5.67/EUR)
X	id AA02587; Thu, 20 Apr 95 22:03:22 +0200
XDate: Thu, 20 Apr 95 22:03:22 +0200
XFrom: Paul Kranenburg 
XMessage-Id: <9504202003.AA02587@cs.few.eur.nl>
XTo: johns@cs.umr.edu
XSubject: your 4/100 code
XCc: chuck@theos.com, deraadt@theos.com
X
X
XTo follow up on this: do you have suggestions to get this rolling?
X
XOne to start with: I can set up an account on my NetBSD/sparc machine for
Xyou and Chuck (Theo already has one) with access to the local source tree;
Xthat way, you can patch things yourself and easily signal me about them.
XIt saves you from making diffs and saves me from having to apply them.
X
X-pk
END-of-8
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XReturn-Path: deraadt@theos.com
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from localhost.theos.com by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA14348; Thu, 20 Apr 95 15:56:55 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9504202156.AA14348@theos.com>
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XCc: Paul Kranenburg , johns@cs.umr.edu, chuck@theos.com
XSubject: Re: your 4/100 code 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 20 Apr 1995 15:32:44 MDT."
X             <9504202132.AA14145@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 15:56:54 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> > To follow up on this: do you have suggestions to get this rolling?
X> > 
X> > One to start with: I can set up an account on my NetBSD/sparc machine for
X> > you and Chuck (Theo already has one) with access to the local source tree;
X> > that way, you can patch things yourself and easily signal me about them.
X> > It saves you from making diffs and saves me from having to apply them.
X> 
X> Paul, I want CVS access on sun-lamp.
X
XThey key is that I've been asking for "cvs log", and "cvs diff" access
Xfor quite some time now. That is what I need. And once those are
Xgiven, I might as well be given "cvs commit" access.
X
XI am really surprised that you would offer so little after 3 months of
Xtalking about and around this.
END-of-9
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XReturn-Path: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
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X	id AA15886; Thu, 20 Apr 95 19:37:39 MDT
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XDate: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 19:17:48 -0400
XMessage-Id: <199504202317.TAA10878@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
XFrom: "Charles M. Hannum" 
XTo: rhealey@kas.helios.mn.org
XCc: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XIn-Reply-To: <199504202201.RAA05385@kas.helios.mn.org> (rhealey@kas.helios.mn.org)
XSubject: Re: Sparc 20 ?
XSender: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XPrecedence: list
XX-Loop: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
X
X
X   >    Does anyone else even _care_ about having working 4/x00 code???
X   > 
X	   Yes, there are probably quite a few of us out here that
X	   could make use of it.
X
X   > Certainly.  However, there's a reason Theo doesn't have direct access
X   > to the CVS tree, and it's not appropriate to discuss it publically.
X   > 
X	   [...]
X
X	   Just my insignificant little opinion... Let's put it in and work
X	   with it like we do on all the other ports! That's what NetBSD is
X	   all about, or at least I thought that's what NetBSD is about.
X
XYou're confusing two issues.  Theo does not currently have direct
Xaccess to the CVS tree, but he has always been welcome to contribute
Xto NetBSD, if he so chooses.
X
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XDate: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 20:15:47 -0400
XMessage-Id: <199504210015.UAA11247@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
XFrom: "Charles M. Hannum" 
XTo: miguel@roxanne.nuclecu.unam.mx
XCc: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XSubject: Re: 4/X00 support from theo (Was: Sparc 20 ?)
XSender: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XPrecedence: list
XX-Loop: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
X
X
X       [...] to the people that want Theo back on the developement of
X       NetBSD, [...]
X
XI think that sums up the misunderstanding here.  We have *no*
Xobjection to Theo contributing to NetBSD.  We never have.  We were
Xquite explicit about this in our contact with Theo.  The only person
Xwho needs to decide whether and how Theo will contribute to NetBSD is
XTheo himself.
X
X       From a couple a messages I received to my request of knowing why
X       the NetBSD core team did not let Theo had access to the CVS tree,
X       it seems like the core team of the NetBSD took the decision of
X       leaving Theo out of the developement group because he was being
X       rude with other people related to NetBSD and because it was
X       "damaging to the project" in terms of social relationships.
X
X1) He is explicitly *not* excluded from the `development group'.  The
Xway most people contribute to the project is by sending changes to the
X`maintainer' of the code they've worked on, or submitting them with
X`send-pr', and he's welcome to do the same.
X
X2) Our action (which was actually several months ago) had nothing to
Xdo with `social relationships'.
X
X       The free software world is already too fragmented to lose a good
X       programmer just because he was not nice with other people (and as
X       I understand Theo was being bothered constantly by the user that
X       complained about the rudeness of Theo).
X
X3) It was not a single user, or a single incident, and it occured over
Xa long period of time.
X
X       If you don't want Theo as an official
X       speaker of the NetBSD team, it's should be ok for most people on
X       this list, just gave him access to the source tree.
X
X4) He does have access to the source tree, in the same way as most
Xother contributors.
X
X
XI think it's reasonably clear that only people in the `core' group
Xknow the details of this, and we consider much of the information to
Xbe confidential.
X
END-of-11
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XReturn-Path: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XReturn-Path: 
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X	id AA15853; Thu, 20 Apr 95 19:29:07 MDT
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XDate: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 20:31:39 -0400
XMessage-Id: <199504210031.UAA11300@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
XFrom: "Charles M. Hannum" 
XTo: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XSubject: Read me!
XSender: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XPrecedence: list
XX-Loop: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
X
X
XPlease note that the description of this list is:
X
X   Technical discussion regarding NetBSD/sparc
X
XDiscussion not directly related to the NetBSD/sparc port and/or not
Xtechnically oriented is not appropriate, and should be taken
Xelsewhere.
X
XIn particular, if you have questions about something the `core' group
Xhas done, you should mail them to `core@netbsd.org'.
X
END-of-12
echo x - 13
sed 's/^X//' >13 << 'END-of-13'
XTo: cgd@netbsd.org
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XSubject: ypbind hack
XDate: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 00:12:28 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xplease send me the diff for that ypbind hack.
Xthanks
END-of-13
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sed 's/^X//' >14 << 'END-of-14'
XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: ypbind hack 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 21 Apr 1995 02:19:23 EDT."
X             <9504210620.AA17430@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 00:37:29 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
XI think I have a better fix, but have not tested it yet. It manages the
Xxid -> dom translation table better.
END-of-14
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sed 's/^X//' >15 << 'END-of-15'
XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: ypbind hack 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 21 Apr 1995 02:48:52 EDT."
X             <9504210649.AA17625@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 01:09:49 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xtry this. it might work, it might not. i can't test it in the situation you
Xhave. but it attempts to map xid's to ypdb's more carefully, then to domain
Xnames.
X
Xof course, it's a whole file because I cannot do diffs. in fact, i lost the
Xoriginal file, and edited it twice so my emacs ~ file is mangled....
X
X
X/*
X * Copyright (c) 1992, 1993 Theo de Raadt 
X * All rights reserved.
X *
X * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
X * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
X * are met:
X * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
X *    notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
X * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
X *    notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
X *    documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
X * 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software
X *    must display the following acknowledgement:
X *	This product includes software developed by Theo de Raadt.
X * 4. The name of the author may not be used to endorse or promote
X *    products derived from this software without specific prior written
X *    permission.
X *
X * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE AUTHOR ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS
X * OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED
X * WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE
X * ARE DISCLAIMED.  IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR BE LIABLE FOR ANY
X * DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL
X * DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS
X * OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION)
X * HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT
X * LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY
X * OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF
X * SUCH DAMAGE.
X */
X
X#ifndef LINT
Xstatic char rcsid[] = "$Id: ypbind.c,v 1.18 1995/01/15 09:09:30 mycroft Exp $";
X#endif
X
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X#include 
X
X#define BINDINGDIR	"/var/yp/binding"
X#define YPBINDLOCK	"/var/run/ypbind.lock"
X
Xstruct _dom_binding {
X	struct _dom_binding *dom_pnext;
X	char dom_domain[YPMAXDOMAIN + 1];
X	struct sockaddr_in dom_server_addr;
X	unsigned short int dom_server_port;
X	int dom_socket;
X	CLIENT *dom_client;
X	long int dom_vers;
X	time_t dom_check_t;
X	time_t dom_ask_t;
X	int dom_lockfd;
X	int dom_alive;
X	int dom_xid;
X};
X
Xextern bool_t xdr_domainname(), xdr_ypbind_resp();
Xextern bool_t xdr_ypreq_key(), xdr_ypresp_val();
Xextern bool_t xdr_ypbind_setdom();
X
Xchar *domainname;
X
Xstruct _dom_binding *ypbindlist;
Xint check;
X
X#define YPSET_NO	0
X#define YPSET_LOCAL	1
X#define YPSET_ALL	2
Xint ypsetmode = YPSET_NO;
X
Xint rpcsock, pingsock;
Xstruct rmtcallargs rmtca;
Xstruct rmtcallres rmtcr;
Xchar rmtcr_outval;
Xu_long rmtcr_port;
XSVCXPRT *udptransp, *tcptransp;
X
Xvoid *
Xypbindproc_null_2(transp, argp, clnt)
X	SVCXPRT *transp;
X	void *argp;
X	CLIENT *clnt;
X{
X	static char res;
X
X	memset(&res, 0, sizeof(res));
X	return (void *)&res;
X}
X
Xstruct ypbind_resp *
Xypbindproc_domain_2(transp, argp, clnt)
X	SVCXPRT *transp;
X	char *argp;
X	CLIENT *clnt;
X{
X	static struct ypbind_resp res;
X	struct _dom_binding *ypdb;
X	char path[MAXPATHLEN];
X	time_t now;
X
X	memset(&res, 0, sizeof res);
X	res.ypbind_status = YPBIND_FAIL_VAL;
X
X	for (ypdb = ypbindlist; ypdb; ypdb = ypdb->dom_pnext)
X		if (!strcmp(ypdb->dom_domain, argp))
X			break;
X
X	if (ypdb == NULL) {
X		ypdb = (struct _dom_binding *)malloc(sizeof *ypdb);
X		memset(ypdb, 0, sizeof *ypdb);
X		strncpy(ypdb->dom_domain, argp, sizeof ypdb->dom_domain);
X		ypdb->dom_vers = YPVERS;
X		ypdb->dom_alive = 0;
X		ypdb->dom_lockfd = -1;
X		sprintf(path, "%s/%s.%d", BINDINGDIR, ypdb->dom_domain, ypdb->dom_vers);
X		unlink(path);
X		ypdb->dom_pnext = ypbindlist;
X		ypbindlist = ypdb;
X		check++;
X		return NULL;
X	}
X
X	if (ypdb->dom_alive == 0)
X		return NULL;
X
X#ifdef HEURISTIC
X	time(&now);
X	if (now < ypdb->dom_ask_t + 5) {
X		/*
X		 * Hmm. More than 2 requests in 5 seconds have indicated
X		 * that my binding is possibly incorrect.
X		 * Ok, do an immediate poll of the server.
X		 */
X		if (ypdb->dom_check_t >= now) {
X			/* don't flood it */
X			ypdb->dom_check_t = 0;
X			check++;
X		}
X	}
X	ypdb->dom_ask_t = now;
X#endif
X
Xanswer:
X	res.ypbind_status = YPBIND_SUCC_VAL;
X	res.ypbind_respbody.ypbind_bindinfo.ypbind_binding_addr.s_addr =
X		ypdb->dom_server_addr.sin_addr.s_addr;
X	res.ypbind_respbody.ypbind_bindinfo.ypbind_binding_port =
X		ypdb->dom_server_port;
X	/*printf("domain %s at %s/%d\n", ypdb->dom_domain,
X		inet_ntoa(ypdb->dom_server_addr.sin_addr),
X		ntohs(ypdb->dom_server_addr.sin_port));*/
X	return &res;
X}
X
Xbool_t *
Xypbindproc_setdom_2(transp, argp, clnt)
X	SVCXPRT *transp;
X	struct ypbind_setdom *argp;
X	CLIENT *clnt;
X{
X	struct sockaddr_in *fromsin, bindsin;
X	static bool_t res;
X
X	memset(&res, 0, sizeof(res));
X	fromsin = svc_getcaller(transp);
X
X	switch (ypsetmode) {
X	case YPSET_LOCAL:
X		if (fromsin->sin_addr.s_addr != htonl(INADDR_LOOPBACK))
X			return (bool_t *)NULL;
X		break;
X	case YPSET_ALL:
X		break;
X	case YPSET_NO:
X	default:
X		return (bool_t *)NULL;
X	}
X
X	if (ntohs(fromsin->sin_port) >= IPPORT_RESERVED)
X		return &res;
X
X	if (argp->ypsetdom_vers != YPVERS)
X		return &res;
X
X	memset(&bindsin, 0, sizeof bindsin);
X	bindsin.sin_family = AF_INET;
X	bindsin.sin_len = sizeof(bindsin);
X	bindsin.sin_addr = argp->ypsetdom_addr;
X	bindsin.sin_port = argp->ypsetdom_port;
X	rpc_received(argp->ypsetdom_domain, &bindsin, 1);
X
X	res = 1;
X	return &res;
X}
X
Xstatic void
Xypbindprog_2(rqstp, transp)
X	struct svc_req *rqstp;
X	register SVCXPRT *transp;
X{
X	union {
X		char ypbindproc_domain_2_arg[MAXHOSTNAMELEN];
X		struct ypbind_setdom ypbindproc_setdom_2_arg;
X	} argument;
X	struct authunix_parms *creds;
X	char *result;
X	bool_t (*xdr_argument)(), (*xdr_result)();
X	char *(*local)();
X
X	switch (rqstp->rq_proc) {
X	case YPBINDPROC_NULL:
X		xdr_argument = xdr_void;
X		xdr_result = xdr_void;
X		local = (char *(*)()) ypbindproc_null_2;
X		break;
X
X	case YPBINDPROC_DOMAIN:
X		xdr_argument = xdr_domainname;
X		xdr_result = xdr_ypbind_resp;
X		local = (char *(*)()) ypbindproc_domain_2;
X		break;
X
X	case YPBINDPROC_SETDOM:
X		switch (rqstp->rq_cred.oa_flavor) {
X		case AUTH_UNIX:
X			creds = (struct authunix_parms *)rqstp->rq_clntcred;
X			if (creds->aup_uid != 0) {
X				svcerr_auth(transp, AUTH_BADCRED);
X				return;
X			}
X			break;
X		default:
X			svcerr_auth(transp, AUTH_TOOWEAK);
X			return;
X		}
X
X		xdr_argument = xdr_ypbind_setdom;
X		xdr_result = xdr_void;
X		local = (char *(*)()) ypbindproc_setdom_2;
X		break;
X
X	default:
X		svcerr_noproc(transp);
X		return;
X	}
X	memset(&argument, 0, sizeof(argument));
X	if (!svc_getargs(transp, xdr_argument, (caddr_t)&argument)) {
X		svcerr_decode(transp);
X		return;
X	}
X	result = (*local)(transp, &argument, rqstp);
X	if (result != NULL && !svc_sendreply(transp, xdr_result, result)) {
X		svcerr_systemerr(transp);
X	}
X	return;
X}
X
Xmain(argc, argv)
X	int argc;
X	char *argv[];
X{
X	char path[MAXPATHLEN];
X	struct timeval tv;
X	fd_set fdsr;
X	int width, lockfd;
X	int evil = 0, one;
X
X	yp_get_default_domain(&domainname);
X	if (domainname[0] == '\0') {
X		fprintf(stderr, "domainname not set. Aborting.\n");
X		exit(1);
X	}
X
X	while (--argc) {
X		++argv;
X		if (!strcmp("-ypset", *argv))
X			ypsetmode = YPSET_ALL;
X		else if (!strcmp("-ypsetme", *argv))
X			ypsetmode = YPSET_LOCAL;
X	}
X
X	/* blow away everything in BINDINGDIR */
X
X#ifdef O_SHLOCK
X	if ((lockfd = open(YPBINDLOCK, O_CREAT|O_SHLOCK|O_RDWR|O_TRUNC, 0644)) == -1) {
X		fprintf(stderr, "ypbind: cannot create %s\n", YPBINDLOCK);
X		exit(1);
X	}
X#else
X	if ((lockfd = open(YPBINDLOCK, O_CREAT|O_RDWR|O_TRUNC, 0644)) == -1) {
X		fprintf(stderr, "ypbind: cannot create %s\n", YPBINDLOCK);
X		exit(1);
X	}
X	flock(lockfd, LOCK_SH);
X#endif
X
X	(void)pmap_unset(YPBINDPROG, YPBINDVERS);
X
X	udptransp = svcudp_create(RPC_ANYSOCK);
X	if (udptransp == NULL) {
X		fprintf(stderr, "cannot create udp service.");
X		exit(1);
X	}
X	if (!svc_register(udptransp, YPBINDPROG, YPBINDVERS, ypbindprog_2,
X	    IPPROTO_UDP)) {
X		fprintf(stderr, "unable to register (YPBINDPROG, YPBINDVERS, udp).");
X		exit(1);
X	}
X
X	tcptransp = svctcp_create(RPC_ANYSOCK, 0, 0);
X	if (tcptransp == NULL) {
X		fprintf(stderr, "cannot create tcp service.");
X		exit(1);
X	}
X	if (!svc_register(tcptransp, YPBINDPROG, YPBINDVERS, ypbindprog_2,
X	    IPPROTO_TCP)) {
X		fprintf(stderr, "unable to register (YPBINDPROG, YPBINDVERS, tcp).");
X		exit(1);
X	}
X
X	if ((rpcsock = socket(AF_INET, SOCK_DGRAM, IPPROTO_UDP)) < 0) {
X		perror("socket");
X		return -1;
X	}
X	if ((pingsock = socket(AF_INET, SOCK_DGRAM, IPPROTO_UDP)) < 0) {
X		perror("socket");
X		return -1;
X	}
X	
X	fcntl(rpcsock, F_SETFL, fcntl(rpcsock, F_GETFL, 0) | FNDELAY);
X	fcntl(pingsock, F_SETFL, fcntl(rpcsock, F_GETFL, 0) | FNDELAY);
X	one = 1;
X	setsockopt(rpcsock, SOL_SOCKET, SO_BROADCAST, &one, sizeof(one));
X	rmtca.prog = YPPROG;
X	rmtca.vers = YPVERS;
X	rmtca.proc = YPPROC_DOMAIN_NONACK;
X	rmtca.xdr_args = NULL;		/* set at call time */
X	rmtca.args_ptr = NULL;		/* set at call time */
X	rmtcr.port_ptr = &rmtcr_port;
X	rmtcr.xdr_results = xdr_bool;
X	rmtcr.results_ptr = (caddr_t)&rmtcr_outval;
X
X	/* build initial domain binding, make it "unsuccessful" */
X	ypbindlist = (struct _dom_binding *)malloc(sizeof *ypbindlist);
X	memset(ypbindlist, 0, sizeof *ypbindlist);
X	strncpy(ypbindlist->dom_domain, domainname, sizeof ypbindlist->dom_domain);
X	ypbindlist->dom_vers = YPVERS;
X	ypbindlist->dom_alive = 0;
X	ypbindlist->dom_lockfd = -1;
X	sprintf(path, "%s/%s.%d", BINDINGDIR, ypbindlist->dom_domain,
X		ypbindlist->dom_vers);
X	(void)unlink(path);
X
X	checkwork();
X
X	while (1) {
X		width = svc_maxfd;
X		if (rpcsock > width)
X			width = rpcsock;
X		if (pingsock > width)
X			width = pingsock;
X		width++;
X
X		fdsr = svc_fdset;
X		FD_SET(rpcsock, &fdsr);
X		FD_SET(pingsock, &fdsr);
X		tv.tv_sec = 1;
X		tv.tv_usec = 0;
X
X		switch (select(width, &fdsr, NULL, NULL, &tv)) {
X		case 0:
X			checkwork();
X			break;
X		case -1:
X			perror("select\n");
X			break;
X		default:
X			if (FD_ISSET(rpcsock, &fdsr))
X				handle_replies();
X			if (FD_ISSET(pingsock, &fdsr))
X				handle_ping();
X			svc_getreqset(&fdsr);
X			if (check)
X				checkwork();
X			break;
X		}
X
X		if (!evil && ypbindlist->dom_alive) {
X			evil = 1;
X			daemon(0, 0);
X		}
X	}
X}
X
X/*
X * State transition is done like this: 
X *
X * STATE	EVENT		ACTION			NEWSTATE	TIMEOUT
X * no binding	timeout		broadcast 		no binding	5 sec
X * no binding	answer		--			binding		60 sec
X * binding	timeout		ping server		checking	5 sec
X * checking	timeout		ping server + broadcast	checking	5 sec
X * checking	answer		--			binding		60 sec
X */
Xcheckwork()
X{
X	struct _dom_binding *ypdb;
X	time_t t;
X
X	check = 0;
X
X	time(&t);
X	for (ypdb = ypbindlist; ypdb; ypdb = ypdb->dom_pnext) {
X		if (ypdb->dom_check_t < t) {
X			if (ypdb->dom_alive == 1)
X				ping(ypdb);
X			else
X				broadcast(ypdb);
X			time(&t);
X			ypdb->dom_check_t = t + 5;
X		}
X	}
X}
X
Xping(ypdb)
X	struct _dom_binding *ypdb;
X{
X	char *dom = ypdb->dom_domain;
X	struct rpc_msg msg;
X	char buf[1400];
X	enum clnt_stat st;
X	int outlen;
X	AUTH *rpcua;
X	XDR xdr;
X
X	memset(&xdr, 0, sizeof xdr);
X	memset(&msg, 0, sizeof msg);
X
X	rpcua = authunix_create_default();
X	if (rpcua == (AUTH *)NULL) {
X		/*printf("cannot get unix auth\n");*/
X		return RPC_SYSTEMERROR;
X	}
X	msg.rm_direction = CALL;
X	msg.rm_call.cb_rpcvers = RPC_MSG_VERSION;
X	msg.rm_call.cb_prog = YPPROG;
X	msg.rm_call.cb_vers = YPVERS;
X	msg.rm_call.cb_proc = YPPROC_DOMAIN_NONACK;
X	msg.rm_call.cb_cred = rpcua->ah_cred;
X	msg.rm_call.cb_verf = rpcua->ah_verf;
X
X	msg.rm_xid = ypdb->dom_xid = (int)ypdb & 0xffffffff;
X	xdrmem_create(&xdr, buf, sizeof buf, XDR_ENCODE);
X	if (!xdr_callmsg(&xdr, &msg)) {
X		st = RPC_CANTENCODEARGS;
X		AUTH_DESTROY(rpcua);
X		return st;
X	}
X	if (!xdr_domainname(&xdr, dom)) {
X		st = RPC_CANTENCODEARGS;
X		AUTH_DESTROY(rpcua);
X		return st;
X	}
X	outlen = (int)xdr_getpos(&xdr);
X	xdr_destroy(&xdr);
X	if (outlen < 1) {
X		st = RPC_CANTENCODEARGS;
X		AUTH_DESTROY(rpcua);
X		return st;
X	}
X	AUTH_DESTROY(rpcua);
X
X	ypdb->dom_alive = 2;
X	if (sendto(pingsock, buf, outlen, 0, 
X		   (struct sockaddr *)&ypdb->dom_server_addr,
X		   sizeof ypdb->dom_server_addr) < 0)
X		perror("sendto");
X	return 0;
X
X}
X
Xstruct _dom_binding *
Xxid2ypdb(xid)
X	int xid;
X{
X	struct _dom_binding *ypdb;
X
X	for (ypdb = ypbindlist; ypdb; ypdb = ypdb->dom_pnext)
X		if (ypdb->dom_xid == xid)
X			break;
X	return (ypdb);
X}
X
Xbroadcast(ypdb)
X	struct _dom_binding *ypdb;
X{
X	char *dom = ypdb->dom_domain;
X	struct rpc_msg msg;
X	char buf[1400], inbuf[8192];
X	char path[MAXPATHLEN];
X	enum clnt_stat st;
X	int outlen, i, sock, len;
X	struct sockaddr_in bindsin;
X	struct ifconf ifc;
X	struct ifreq ifreq, *ifr;
X	struct in_addr in;
X	AUTH *rpcua;
X	XDR xdr;
X
X	rmtca.xdr_args = xdr_domainname;
X	rmtca.args_ptr = dom;
X
X	memset(&xdr, 0, sizeof xdr);
X	memset(&msg, 0, sizeof msg);
X
X	rpcua = authunix_create_default();
X	if (rpcua == (AUTH *)NULL) {
X		/*printf("cannot get unix auth\n");*/
X		return RPC_SYSTEMERROR;
X	}
X	msg.rm_direction = CALL;
X	msg.rm_call.cb_rpcvers = RPC_MSG_VERSION;
X	msg.rm_call.cb_prog = PMAPPROG;
X	msg.rm_call.cb_vers = PMAPVERS;
X	msg.rm_call.cb_proc = PMAPPROC_CALLIT;
X	msg.rm_call.cb_cred = rpcua->ah_cred;
X	msg.rm_call.cb_verf = rpcua->ah_verf;
X
X	msg.rm_xid = ypdb->dom_xid = (int)ypdb & 0xffffffff;
X	xdrmem_create(&xdr, buf, sizeof buf, XDR_ENCODE);
X	if (!xdr_callmsg(&xdr, &msg)) {
X		st = RPC_CANTENCODEARGS;
X		AUTH_DESTROY(rpcua);
X		return st;
X	}
X	if (!xdr_rmtcall_args(&xdr, &rmtca)) {
X		st = RPC_CANTENCODEARGS;
X		AUTH_DESTROY(rpcua);
X		return st;
X	}
X	outlen = (int)xdr_getpos(&xdr);
X	xdr_destroy(&xdr);
X	if (outlen < 1) {
X		st = RPC_CANTENCODEARGS;
X		AUTH_DESTROY(rpcua);
X		return st;
X	}
X	AUTH_DESTROY(rpcua);
X
X	if (ypdb->dom_lockfd != -1) {
X		close(ypdb->dom_lockfd);
X		ypdb->dom_lockfd = -1;
X		sprintf(path, "%s/%s.%d", BINDINGDIR,
X			ypdb->dom_domain, ypdb->dom_vers);
X		unlink(path);
X	}
X
X	memset(&bindsin, 0, sizeof bindsin);
X	bindsin.sin_family = AF_INET;
X	bindsin.sin_len = sizeof(bindsin);
X	bindsin.sin_port = htons(PMAPPORT);
X
X	if (ypdb->dom_alive == 2) {
X		/*
X		 * This resolves the following situation:
X		 * ypserver on other subnet was once bound,
X		 * but rebooted and is now using a different port
X		 */
X		bindsin.sin_addr = ypdb->dom_server_addr.sin_addr;
X		if (sendto(rpcsock, buf, outlen, 0, (struct sockaddr *)&bindsin,
X			   sizeof bindsin) < 0)
X			perror("sendto");
X	}
X	/* find all networks and send the RPC packet out them all */
X	if ((sock = socket(AF_INET, SOCK_DGRAM, IPPROTO_UDP)) < 0) {
X		perror("socket");
X		return -1;
X	}
X	
X	ifc.ifc_len = sizeof inbuf;
X	ifc.ifc_buf = inbuf;
X	if (ioctl(sock, SIOCGIFCONF, &ifc) < 0) {
X		close(sock);
X		perror("ioctl(SIOCGIFCONF)");
X		return -1;
X	}
X	ifr = ifc.ifc_req;
X	ifreq.ifr_name[0] = '\0';
X	for (i = 0; i < ifc.ifc_len; i += len, ifr = (struct ifreq *)((caddr_t)ifr + len)) {
X#if defined(BSD) && BSD >= 199103
X		len = sizeof ifr->ifr_name + ifr->ifr_addr.sa_len;
X#else
X		len = sizeof ifc.ifc_len / sizeof(struct ifreq);
X#endif
X		ifreq = *ifr;
X		if (ifreq.ifr_addr.sa_family != AF_INET)
X			continue;
X		if (ioctl(sock, SIOCGIFFLAGS, &ifreq) < 0) {
X			perror("ioctl(SIOCGIFFLAGS)");
X			continue;
X		}
X		if ((ifreq.ifr_flags & IFF_UP) == 0)
X			continue;
X
X		ifreq.ifr_flags &= (IFF_LOOPBACK | IFF_BROADCAST);
X		if (ifreq.ifr_flags == IFF_BROADCAST) {
X			if (ioctl(sock, SIOCGIFBRDADDR, &ifreq) < 0) {
X				perror("ioctl(SIOCGIFBRDADDR)");
X				continue;
X			}
X		} else if (ifreq.ifr_flags == IFF_LOOPBACK) {
X			if (ioctl(sock, SIOCGIFADDR, &ifreq) < 0) {
X				perror("ioctl(SIOCGIFADDR)");
X				continue;
X			}
X		} else
X			continue;
X
X		in = ((struct sockaddr_in *)&ifreq.ifr_addr)->sin_addr;
X		bindsin.sin_addr = in;
X		if (sendto(rpcsock, buf, outlen, 0, (struct sockaddr *)&bindsin,
X			   sizeof bindsin) < 0)
X			perror("sendto");
X	}
X	close(sock);
X	return 0;
X}
X
X/*enum clnt_stat*/
Xhandle_replies()
X{
X	char buf[1400];
X	int fromlen, inlen;
X	struct _dom_binding *ypdb;
X	struct sockaddr_in raddr;
X	struct rpc_msg msg;
X	XDR xdr;
X
Xrecv_again:
X	memset(&xdr, 0, sizeof(xdr));
X	memset(&msg, 0, sizeof(msg));
X	msg.acpted_rply.ar_verf = _null_auth;
X	msg.acpted_rply.ar_results.where = (caddr_t)&rmtcr;
X	msg.acpted_rply.ar_results.proc = xdr_rmtcallres;
X
Xtry_again:
X	fromlen = sizeof (struct sockaddr);
X	inlen = recvfrom(rpcsock, buf, sizeof buf, 0,
X		(struct sockaddr *)&raddr, &fromlen);
X	if (inlen < 0) {
X		if (errno == EINTR)
X			goto try_again;
X		return RPC_CANTRECV;
X	}
X	if (inlen < sizeof(u_int32_t))
X		goto recv_again;
X
X	/*
X	 * see if reply transaction id matches sent id.
X	 * If so, decode the results.
X	 */
X	xdrmem_create(&xdr, buf, (u_int)inlen, XDR_DECODE);
X	if (xdr_replymsg(&xdr, &msg)) {
X		if ((msg.rm_reply.rp_stat == MSG_ACCEPTED) &&
X		    (msg.acpted_rply.ar_stat == SUCCESS)) {
X			raddr.sin_port = htons((u_short)rmtcr_port);
X			ypdb = xid2ypdb(msg.rm_xid);
X			if (ypdb)
X				rpc_received(ypdb->dom_domain, &raddr, 0);
X		}
X	}
X	xdr.x_op = XDR_FREE;
X	msg.acpted_rply.ar_results.proc = xdr_void;
X	xdr_destroy(&xdr);
X
X	return RPC_SUCCESS;
X}
X
X/*enum clnt_stat*/
Xhandle_ping()
X{
X	char buf[1400];
X	int fromlen, inlen;
X	struct _dom_binding *ypdb;
X	struct sockaddr_in raddr;
X	struct rpc_msg msg;
X	XDR xdr;
X	bool_t res;
X
Xrecv_again:
X	memset(&xdr, 0, sizeof(xdr));
X	memset(&msg, 0, sizeof(msg));
X	msg.acpted_rply.ar_verf = _null_auth;
X	msg.acpted_rply.ar_results.where = (caddr_t)&res;
X	msg.acpted_rply.ar_results.proc = xdr_bool;
X
Xtry_again:
X	fromlen = sizeof (struct sockaddr);
X	inlen = recvfrom(pingsock, buf, sizeof buf, 0,
X		(struct sockaddr *)&raddr, &fromlen);
X	if (inlen < 0) {
X		if (errno == EINTR)
X			goto try_again;
X		return RPC_CANTRECV;
X	}
X	if (inlen < sizeof(u_int32_t))
X		goto recv_again;
X
X	/*
X	 * see if reply transaction id matches sent id.
X	 * If so, decode the results.
X	 */
X	xdrmem_create(&xdr, buf, (u_int)inlen, XDR_DECODE);
X	if (xdr_replymsg(&xdr, &msg)) {
X		if ((msg.rm_reply.rp_stat == MSG_ACCEPTED) &&
X		    (msg.acpted_rply.ar_stat == SUCCESS)) {
X			ypdb = xid2ypdb(msg.rm_xid);
X			if (ypdb)
X				rpc_received(ypdb->dom_domain, &raddr, 0);
X		}
X	}
X	xdr.x_op = XDR_FREE;
X	msg.acpted_rply.ar_results.proc = xdr_void;
X	xdr_destroy(&xdr);
X
X	return RPC_SUCCESS;
X}
X
X/*
X * LOOPBACK IS MORE IMPORTANT: PUT IN HACK
X */
Xrpc_received(dom, raddrp, force)
Xchar *dom;
Xstruct sockaddr_in *raddrp;
Xint force;
X{
X	struct _dom_binding *ypdb;
X	struct iovec iov[2];
X	struct ypbind_resp ybr;
X	char path[MAXPATHLEN];
X	int fd;
X
X	/*printf("returned from %s about %s\n", inet_ntoa(raddrp->sin_addr), dom);*/
X
X	if (dom == NULL)
X		return;
X
X	for (ypdb = ypbindlist; ypdb; ypdb = ypdb->dom_pnext)
X		if (!strcmp(ypdb->dom_domain, dom))
X			break;
X
X	if (ypdb == NULL) {
X		if (force == 0)
X			return;
X		ypdb = (struct _dom_binding *)malloc(sizeof *ypdb);
X		memset(ypdb, 0, sizeof *ypdb);
X		strncpy(ypdb->dom_domain, dom, sizeof ypdb->dom_domain);
X		ypdb->dom_lockfd = -1;
X		ypdb->dom_pnext = ypbindlist;
X		ypbindlist = ypdb;
X	}
X
X	/* soft update, alive */
X	if (ypdb->dom_alive == 1 && force == 0) {
X		if (!memcmp(&ypdb->dom_server_addr, raddrp,
X			    sizeof ypdb->dom_server_addr)) {
X			ypdb->dom_alive = 1;
X			ypdb->dom_check_t = time(NULL) + 60; /* recheck binding in 60 sec */
X		}
X		return;
X	}
X	
X	memcpy(&ypdb->dom_server_addr, raddrp, sizeof ypdb->dom_server_addr);
X	ypdb->dom_check_t = time(NULL) + 60;	/* recheck binding in 60 seconds */
X	ypdb->dom_vers = YPVERS;
X	ypdb->dom_alive = 1;
X
X	if (ypdb->dom_lockfd != -1)
X		close(ypdb->dom_lockfd);
X
X	sprintf(path, "%s/%s.%d", BINDINGDIR,
X		ypdb->dom_domain, ypdb->dom_vers);
X#ifdef O_SHLOCK
X	if ((fd = open(path, O_CREAT|O_SHLOCK|O_RDWR|O_TRUNC, 0644)) == -1) {
X		(void)mkdir(BINDINGDIR, 0755);
X		if ((fd = open(path, O_CREAT|O_SHLOCK|O_RDWR|O_TRUNC, 0644)) == -1)
X			return;
X	}
X#else
X	if ((fd = open(path, O_CREAT|O_RDWR|O_TRUNC, 0644)) == -1) {
X		(void)mkdir(BINDINGDIR, 0755);
X		if ((fd = open(path, O_CREAT|O_RDWR|O_TRUNC, 0644)) == -1)
X			return;
X	}
X	flock(fd, LOCK_SH);
X#endif
X
X	/*
X	 * ok, if BINDINGDIR exists, and we can create the binding file,
X	 * then write to it..
X	 */
X	ypdb->dom_lockfd = fd;
X
X	iov[0].iov_base = (caddr_t)&(udptransp->xp_port);
X	iov[0].iov_len = sizeof udptransp->xp_port;
X	iov[1].iov_base = (caddr_t)&ybr;
X	iov[1].iov_len = sizeof ybr;
X
X	memset(&ybr, 0, sizeof ybr);
X	ybr.ypbind_status = YPBIND_SUCC_VAL;
X	ybr.ypbind_respbody.ypbind_bindinfo.ypbind_binding_addr = raddrp->sin_addr;
X	ybr.ypbind_respbody.ypbind_bindinfo.ypbind_binding_port = raddrp->sin_port;
X
X	if (writev(ypdb->dom_lockfd, iov, 2) != iov[0].iov_len + iov[1].iov_len) {
X		perror("write");
X		close(ypdb->dom_lockfd);
X		unlink(path);
X		ypdb->dom_lockfd = -1;
X		return;
X	}
X}
END-of-15
echo x - 16
sed 's/^X//' >16 << 'END-of-16'
XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: ypbind hack 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 21 Apr 1995 02:48:52 EDT."
X             <9504210649.AA17625@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 01:14:56 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xif that works, please don't commit that; i would like to do that
Xmyself in a few days, if things work out ok.  i've not sent mail to
Xcore yet because i'm very busy with sun4m trap code.
END-of-16
echo x - 17
sed 's/^X//' >17 << 'END-of-17'
XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: ypbind hack 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 21 Apr 1995 02:48:52 EDT."
X             <9504210649.AA17625@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 01:14:56 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xif that works, please don't commit that; i would like to do that
Xmyself in a few days, if things work out ok.  i've not sent mail to
Xcore yet because i'm very busy with sun4m trap code.
END-of-17
echo x - 18
sed 's/^X//' >18 << 'END-of-18'
XReplied: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 10:40:02 -0600
XReplied: "chuck, johns "
XReturn-Path: pk@cs.few.eur.nl
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from cs.few.eur.nl (kaa.cs.few.eur.nl) by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA18271; Fri, 21 Apr 95 04:11:35 MDT
XReceived: by cs.few.eur.nl (5.67/EUR)
X	id AA27996; Fri, 21 Apr 95 12:11:37 +0200
XDate: Fri, 21 Apr 95 12:11:37 +0200
XFrom: Paul Kranenburg 
XMessage-Id: <9504211011.AA27996@cs.few.eur.nl>
XTo: deraadt@theos.com
XSubject: Re: your 4/100 code
XCc: johns@cs.umr.edu, chuck@theos.com
X
X> They key is that I've been asking for "cvs log", and "cvs diff" access
X> for quite some time now. That is what I need. And once those are
X> given, I might as well be given "cvs commit" access.
X> 
X> I am really surprised that you would offer so little after 3 months of
X> talking about and around this.
X> 
X
XThe only thing _I_ can offer at this point is a private arrangement for the
Xsake of finding a practical way of integrating the changes you guys want to
Xsee in the -current NetBSD/sparc port.
X
XPlease consider directing your proposal for cvs access to `core@netbsd'; it
Xis the appropriate way (and it holds true for anyone). I'll be backing such
Xa proposal.
X
X-pk
X
X
XPS. I'm rather annoyed that these things are now being discussed in public
X    on port-sparc.
END-of-18
echo x - 19
sed 's/^X//' >19 << 'END-of-19'
XTo: core@netbsd.org
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XSubject: CVS access
XDate: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 07:15:19 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
XI would like to have CVS access once again. I would like to return to
Xthe development environment that I once had.
X
XI have about 6000 lines of diffs to arch/sparc. I would like to commit
Xthose changes myself. Because of the difficulty of maintaining changes
Xin multiple places in the tree, I have nearly ceased making any
Ximprovements to parts outside of arch/sparc. That will also start to
Xchange if I get access once again.
END-of-19
echo x - 20
sed 's/^X//' >20 << 'END-of-20'
XTo: core@netbsd.org
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XSubject: CVS access
XDate: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 07:15:19 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
XI would like to have CVS access once again. I would like to return to
Xthe development environment that I once had.
X
XI have about 6000 lines of diffs to arch/sparc. I would like to commit
Xthose changes myself. Because of the difficulty of maintaining changes
Xin multiple places in the tree, I have nearly ceased making any
Ximprovements to parts outside of arch/sparc. That will also start to
Xchange if I get access once again.
END-of-20
echo x - 21
sed 's/^X//' >21 << 'END-of-21'
XReplied: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 13:09:54 -0600
XReplied: "Chris G Demetriou  "
XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA27949; Sat, 22 Apr 95 13:47:40 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9504221947.AA27949@theos.com>
XReceived: from LOCALHOST by LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU id aa20087;
X          22 Apr 95 15:47 EDT
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XCc: core@netbsd.org
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: CVS access 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 21 Apr 1995 07:15:19 MDT."
X             <9504211315.AA19068@theos.com> 
XDate: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 15:47:21 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
X> I would like to have CVS access once again. I would like to return to
X> the development environment that I once had.
X> 
X> I have about 6000 lines of diffs to arch/sparc. I would like to commit
X> those changes myself. Because of the difficulty of maintaining changes
X> in multiple places in the tree, I have nearly ceased making any
X> improvements to parts outside of arch/sparc. That will also start to
X> change if I get access once again.
X
XI have no great objection to you having access to the CVS tree.
XWhether or not you should be able to freely hack the sparc port is
Xreally up to Paul, as it's his "ball" now.
X
XWhat i am concerned about:
X
X	(1) if you're going to be working on a large portion of
X		the source tree, e.g. the sparc port or large amounts
X		of code outside of it, you need to be in "reasonable
X		touch" with us.  Do you think that will be difficult
X		for you or us to do?
X
X	(2) I want to be _sure_ that you in no way annoy, ruffle,
X		tweak, perturb, piss off, piss on, bugger, etc.,
X		any users, developers, or potential developers of
X		NetBSD, unless they specifically ask you to.  That's
X		what got us to this point to begin with, really.  Do
X		you think you can manage _that_?  I.e. are you willing
X		to "just say no" to flaming people, however idiotic
X		they may be?
X
X		
X
Xlater,
X
Xchris
END-of-21
echo x - 22
sed 's/^X//' >22 << 'END-of-22'
XReturn-Path: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from pain.lcs.mit.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA01065; Sun, 23 Apr 95 01:39:18 MDT
XReceived: (from daemon@localhost) by pain.lcs.mit.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id CAA02277 for port-sparc-outgoing; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 02:27:11 -0400
XReceived: from LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU by pain.lcs.mit.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA02273 for ; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 02:27:07 -0400
XMessage-Id: <199504230627.CAA02273@pain.lcs.mit.edu>
XReceived: from localhost by LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU id aa20214;
X          23 Apr 95 2:26 EDT
XTo: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XSubject: need Sun si vme card
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
XDate: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 02:26:47 -0400
XSender: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XPrecedence: list
XX-Loop: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
X
XIf anyone has a spare/junk Sun vme si scsi card lying around, I would
Xlike to have one. I'm a ways along the task of writing an
Xinterrupt-driven dma'ing disconnect/reconnect 5380 driver for the
Xfollowing scsi's: obio si (sun3-only), vme si (any sun4/sun3), obio sw
X(4/100-only).
X
X(Later on this driver could probably be easily modified for other
Xports...)
END-of-22
echo x - 23
sed 's/^X//' >23 << 'END-of-23'
XTo: Adam Glass 
XSubject: Re: hi and fyi 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 23 Apr 1995 21:42:36 PDT."
X             <199504240442.VAA15167@toe.CS.Berkeley.EDU> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 22:41:27 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
XI heard. I'm still not happy with the situation there. I'm still not
Xhappy with what you did.
X
XOtherwise, life is great.
END-of-23
echo x - 24
sed 's/^X//' >24 << 'END-of-24'
XReplied: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 22:41:28 -0600
XReplied: "Adam Glass  "
XReturn-Path: glass@postgres.Berkeley.EDU
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from toe.CS.Berkeley.EDU by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA01046; Sun, 23 Apr 95 22:39:40 MDT
XReceived: (glass@localhost) by toe.CS.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.10/8.1B) id VAA15167; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 21:42:36 -0700
XDate: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 21:42:36 -0700
XFrom: Adam Glass 
XMessage-Id: <199504240442.VAA15167@toe.CS.Berkeley.EDU>
XTo: theo@theos.com
XSubject: hi and fyi
X
X
X
Xfirst: I hope you are well.
X
Xsecond: FYI: I resigned from the NetBSD project last monday, effective
X             last friday so that I could pursue other interests.
X
Xlater,
XAdam
END-of-24
echo x - 25
sed 's/^X//' >25 << 'END-of-25'
XForwarded: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 13:11:44 -0600
XForwarded: "johns, chuck "
XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: CVS access 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 22 Apr 1995 15:47:21 EDT."
X             <9504221947.AA27949@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 13:09:54 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xthere hasn't been any progress. i've heard nothing further. that said,
Xi didn't reply to that mail earlier because i wasn't happy with the
Xtone of the last chunk in it. the mail didn't strike me as containing
Xan offer, rather, it struck me as requiring statements from me before
Xan offer would be made. that doesn't put us any closer. i'm sure that
Xit is better for all of us if we can get to the meat of the matter
Xwithout having to make promises, admissions, and such.
X
Xactually, there has been progress. diffs are now almost 9600 lines
Xwithout counting (i think) 12 new files. and this makes merging a
Xcouple hour long task.
X
Xyou must know, i want no part in any politics.
END-of-25
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sed 's/^X//' >26 << 'END-of-26'
XReplied: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 16:29:56 -0600
XReplied: "Chris G Demetriou  "
XReplied: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 16:28:09 -0600
XReplied: "Chris G Demetriou  "
XReplied: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 16:06:18 -0600
XReplied: "Chris G Demetriou  "
XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA24130; Wed, 26 Apr 95 13:53:42 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9504261953.AA24130@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU id aa03432;
X          26 Apr 95 15:53 EDT
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XCc: cgd@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: CVS access 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 26 Apr 1995 13:09:54 MDT."
X             <9504261909.AA23858@theos.com> 
XDate: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 15:53:16 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
X[ your message probably should have been sent to 'core', but... ]
X
X> there hasn't been any progress. i've heard nothing further. that said,
X> i didn't reply to that mail earlier because i wasn't happy with the
X> tone of the last chunk in it. the mail didn't strike me as containing
X> an offer, rather, it struck me as requiring statements from me before
X> an offer would be made. that doesn't put us any closer. i'm sure that
X> it is better for all of us if we can get to the meat of the matter
X> without having to make promises, admissions, and such.
X
XI'm sorry if you didn't like the tone of it, but frankly i wasn't
Xparticularly pleased with the tone of _your_ letter, myself.  However,
Xthat's "water under the bridge."
X
X
XI _can't_ unilaterally make you an offer of an account with source
Xtree access, or of the right to modify the sparc port.
X
XThe former _has_ to be decided by 'core', though they seem to be
Xrelying on me to do most of the talking (as annoying as that is, to
Xme).  The latter _has_ to be decided by Paul, as the SPARC port is
Xcurrently _his_ baby, and there has been little evidence presented to
Xindicate that it someone should be given "complete write access"
Xwithout his consent.
X
XThat being said:
X
XAs i said before, I have no objection to letting you have an account
Xwith CVS tree, _BUT_ in order for this to happen i need to know that
Xour relationship is going to be a positive one.  Unfortunately, while
X'code generated' is important, it _isn't_ the entirety of the matter.
X
XTo my mind, a "positive working relationship" implies two things in
Xaddition to "code":
X	(1) we (you, and 'core') can communicate well with each other,
X	(2) that you aren't going to stomp on anybody's toes.
X
X
XI don't want any admissions, or anything like that.  That's a waste of
Xtime for everybody involved.
X
XI _do_ however _need_ to know that you're going to do your best to
Xwork with us and to work with the other people involved (in various
Xcapacities) with the project.
X
XOnce i know that, _I_ can strongly advocate that you be given an
Xaccount.  Since no one else seems to have much feeling about the
Xmatter at all, i think that would be enough.
X
X
X> you must know, i want no part in any politics.
X
XThat's good.  Frankly, neither do we, nor have we ever.  Politics is a
Xwaste of time, for the most part.
X
X
X
Xcgd
END-of-26
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sed 's/^X//' >27 << 'END-of-27'
XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: CVS access 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 26 Apr 1995 15:53:16 EDT."
X             <9504261953.AA24130@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 16:06:18 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xso what shall i write to core to expedite the process?
END-of-27
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sed 's/^X//' >28 << 'END-of-28'
XTo: chuck@zeus.theos.com
XSubject: Chris G Demetriou: Re: CVS access 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 16:08:25 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xmy response to this was simply "what can i say to core to expedite the
Xprocess?"
X
X------- Forwarded Message
X
XReplied: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 16:06:18 -0600
XReplied: "Chris G Demetriou  "
XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA24130; Wed, 26 Apr 95 13:53:42 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9504261953.AA24130@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU id aa03432;
X          26 Apr 95 15:53 EDT
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XCc: cgd@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: CVS access 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 26 Apr 1995 13:09:54 MDT."
X             <9504261909.AA23858@theos.com> 
XDate: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 15:53:16 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
X[ your message probably should have been sent to 'core', but... ]
X
X> there hasn't been any progress. i've heard nothing further. that said,
X> i didn't reply to that mail earlier because i wasn't happy with the
X> tone of the last chunk in it. the mail didn't strike me as containing
X> an offer, rather, it struck me as requiring statements from me before
X> an offer would be made. that doesn't put us any closer. i'm sure that
X> it is better for all of us if we can get to the meat of the matter
X> without having to make promises, admissions, and such.
X
XI'm sorry if you didn't like the tone of it, but frankly i wasn't
Xparticularly pleased with the tone of _your_ letter, myself.  However,
Xthat's "water under the bridge."
X
X
XI _can't_ unilaterally make you an offer of an account with source
Xtree access, or of the right to modify the sparc port.
X
XThe former _has_ to be decided by 'core', though they seem to be
Xrelying on me to do most of the talking (as annoying as that is, to
Xme).  The latter _has_ to be decided by Paul, as the SPARC port is
Xcurrently _his_ baby, and there has been little evidence presented to
Xindicate that it someone should be given "complete write access"
Xwithout his consent.
X
XThat being said:
X
XAs i said before, I have no objection to letting you have an account
Xwith CVS tree, _BUT_ in order for this to happen i need to know that
Xour relationship is going to be a positive one.  Unfortunately, while
X'code generated' is important, it _isn't_ the entirety of the matter.
X
XTo my mind, a "positive working relationship" implies two things in
Xaddition to "code":
X	(1) we (you, and 'core') can communicate well with each other,
X	(2) that you aren't going to stomp on anybody's toes.
X
X
XI don't want any admissions, or anything like that.  That's a waste of
Xtime for everybody involved.
X
XI _do_ however _need_ to know that you're going to do your best to
Xwork with us and to work with the other people involved (in various
Xcapacities) with the project.
X
XOnce i know that, _I_ can strongly advocate that you be given an
Xaccount.  Since no one else seems to have much feeling about the
Xmatter at all, i think that would be enough.
X
X
X> you must know, i want no part in any politics.
X
XThat's good.  Frankly, neither do we, nor have we ever.  Politics is a
Xwaste of time, for the most part.
X
X
X
Xcgd
X
X------- End of Forwarded Message
X
END-of-28
echo x - 29
sed 's/^X//' >29 << 'END-of-29'
XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: CVS access 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 26 Apr 1995 15:53:16 EDT."
X             <9504261953.AA24130@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 16:28:09 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> I'm sorry if you didn't like the tone of it, but frankly i wasn't
X> particularly pleased with the tone of _your_ letter, myself.  However,
X> that's "water under the bridge."
X
Xsorry to hear that, but i was speaking honestly -- it bothered me
Xenough to not reply to it for days; i was not trying to rub you wrong
Xwith it, nor was i trying to ignore what it said. it really sounded
Xlike it was treating me as a special case who has previously been a
Xreal asshole. those conditions have never been imposed on anyone else
Xwith such a statement. if you like, go read it again and try to see if
Xfrom my side. the concern is that i felt it was being very
Xantagonistic towards me; thus it took me days to finally respond to it
Xbecause i couldn't figure out what to say in reply. that it took me
Xthat many days to reply is an indication that i was placed in a
Xcondition where i could _not_ communicate with core, which is what you
Xwant. i'm trying to stay out of politics.
X
X> The latter _has_ to be decided by Paul, as the SPARC port is
X> currently _his_ baby, and there has been little evidence presented to
X> indicate that it someone should be given "complete write access"
X> without his consent.
X
Xi haven't heard anything from him on the matter.
X
X> To my mind, a "positive working relationship" implies two things in
X> addition to "code":
X> 	(1) we (you, and 'core') can communicate well with each other,
X
Xyou and i have communicated; thus far core has said nothing. that's
Xa failure of communication.
X
X> 	(2) that you aren't going to stomp on anybody's toes.
X
Xthat has never been my intention before.
X
X> I _do_ however _need_ to know that you're going to do your best to
X> work with us and to work with the other people involved (in various
X> capacities) with the project.
X
Xi have always done that, and always will. that's why there isn't
Xa NextBSD yet. the more the merrier, or at least that's how it used
Xto be.
X
X> Once i know that, _I_ can strongly advocate that you be given an
X> account.  Since no one else seems to have much feeling about the
X> matter at all, i think that would be enough.
X
END-of-29
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sed 's/^X//' >30 << 'END-of-30'
XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: CVS access 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 26 Apr 1995 15:53:16 EDT."
X             <9504261953.AA24130@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 16:29:56 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xif you don't go back and re-read it, that's actually better. let's
Xget on with the meat of the matter.
END-of-30
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sed 's/^X//' >31 << 'END-of-31'
XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: CVS access 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 26 Apr 1995 18:50:49 EDT."
X             <9504262251.AA24979@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 18:11:13 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xyour last message to me was mangled.
END-of-31
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sed 's/^X//' >32 << 'END-of-32'
XReplied: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 19:00:46 -0600
XReplied: "Chris G Demetriou  "
XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA25420; Wed, 26 Apr 95 18:18:23 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9504270018.AA25420@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU id aa03922;
X          26 Apr 95 20:17 EDT
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XCc: cgd@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: CVS access 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 26 Apr 1995 16:28:09 MDT."
X             <9504262228.AA24828@theos.com> 
XDate: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 20:17:46 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
X[ replies to several pieces of mail, condensed into one... ]
X
X> it really sounded
X> like it was treating me as a special case who has previously been a
X> real asshole. those conditions have never been imposed on anyone else
X> with such a statement.
X
XI'm going to disregard the "who has previously been a real asshole"
Xclause, because it's pointless.
X
XYou _are_ a special case, however; never before in the history of the
Xproject had 'core' felt that they "had to" forcibly remove from any
Xcapacity.  The fact is, we _did_ think that we had to do that, and i
Xthink we had reasonable cause to think so.
X
XBTW: i was sort-of modeling my comment in the original response
Xon the San Diego Zoo's "Do not tease ... ruffle ... etc. ... the
Xanimals" signs...  The list wasn't intended to be taken literally, or
Xeven completely seriously.  I was intended to be (at least slightly)
Xhumorous.  sorry if it wasn't taken as such.
X
X
X> > The latter _has_ to be decided by Paul, as the SPARC port is
X> > currently _his_ baby, and there has been little evidence presented to
X> > indicate that it someone should be given "complete write access"
X> > without his consent.
X> 
X> i haven't heard anything from him on the matter.
X
Xyes, and if he doesn't say anything within a "reasonable" period of
Xtime, it's going to be decided by fiat.
X
X
X> > 	(2) that you aren't going to stomp on anybody's toes.
X> 
X> that has never been my intention before.
X
Xbut it _has_ happened; one can "forgive," but one can forget only if
Xone doesn't think a problem will bite in the future, and i'd like a
Xbit stronger feeling than "farm fuzzies" that it won't.
X
X(sorry, i've been burned several too many times going on "warm
Xfuzzies" alone.  *sigh*)
X
X
X> > I _do_ however _need_ to know that you're going to do your best to
X> > work with us and to work with the other people involved (in various
X> > capacities) with the project.
X> 
X> i have always done that, and always will. that's why there isn't
X> a NextBSD yet. the more the merrier, or at least that's how it used
X> to be.
X
XHmm.  Well then, i feel that i must point out that at some times,
X"your best" _wasn't_ sufficiently restrained to be "good enough."
X
XThe point is, we (or at least I; since i've not heard anything to the
Xcontrary, i can only assume quiet agreement) want to be _sure_ that
Xyour future attempts _will be_ "good enough."  Mostly, that means not
Xflaming anybody related to the NetBSD project, for any reason.  If you
Xthink you've got cause to flame them, take it to somebody else
X(e.g. 'core' or me personally), and we'll deal with it.
X
X
Xyou also asked (earlier, i guess):
X> so what shall i write to core to expedite the process?
X
Xi can't really answer that, mostly because it's supposed to be some
Xcomment from you, i'd think.  (i mean what, am i supposed to hand you
Xa script?  or say, "the entire works of william shakespeare would
Xcertainly brighten up _my_ day, but i dunno about anyone else? 8-)
X
X
XThe point is, i'd like to hear a reasonable statement from your "lips"
Xthat:
X
X	(1) you're willing to work _with_ us, be generally
X	    cooperative, etc.  This is not unreasonable, and
X	    everything that you've said (namely, that you've been
X	    advocating all along that people should work together)
X	    has indicated that it's acceptable to you.  I'd like to
X	    see a confirmation of that.
X
X	(2) you're not going to flame people, and if you do feel
X	    strongly inclined to, that you'll punt the problem to
X	    somebody else.  If somebody calls you a mud-sucking
X	    pig-dog, or is otherwise a twink, let somebody else deal
X	    with it...
X
X
X
Xlater,
X
Xchris
END-of-32
echo x - 33
sed 's/^X//' >33 << 'END-of-33'
XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: CVS access 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 26 Apr 1995 20:17:46 EDT."
X             <9504270018.AA25420@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 19:00:46 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> > > 	(2) that you aren't going to stomp on anybody's toes.
X> > 
X> > that has never been my intention before.
X> 
X> but it _has_ happened; one can "forgive," but one can forget only if
X> one doesn't think a problem will bite in the future, and i'd like a
X> bit stronger feeling than "farm fuzzies" that it won't.
X
Xit has happened with all of us. it was never our intention, was it?
X
X> Hmm.  Well then, i feel that i must point out that at some times,
X> "your best" _wasn't_ sufficiently restrained to be "good enough."
X
Xplease, you don't want me to start pointing fingers either, do you?
Xthere are fingers to point all the way around. there are people who
Xhave been driven away in all directions, by everyone involved.
X
X> The point is, we (or at least I; since i've not heard anything to the
X> contrary, i can only assume quiet agreement) want to be _sure_ that
X> your future attempts _will be_ "good enough."  Mostly, that means not
X> flaming anybody related to the NetBSD project, for any reason.  If you
X> think you've got cause to flame them, take it to somebody else
X> (e.g. 'core' or me personally), and we'll deal with it.
X
Xput it this way. i'm not willing to make my code available unless i
Xcommit it myself. would i get access, commit it myself, then purposely
Xgo out of my way to make a situation where once again i would not be
Xable to commit stuff?
X
Xas i've heard it, the entire situation of losing access was a
Xpreventative measure against sabotage, and unrelated otherwise from
Xcore. core doesn't matter to me anymore. it's politics. working on
Xcode matters.
X
X> The point is, i'd like to hear a reasonable statement from your "lips"
X> that:
X> 
X> 	(1) you're willing to work _with_ us, be generally
X> 	    cooperative, etc.  This is not unreasonable, and
X> 	    everything that you've said (namely, that you've been
X> 	    advocating all along that people should work together)
X> 	    has indicated that it's acceptable to you.  I'd like to
X> 	    see a confirmation of that.
X
Xi intend to be cooperative.
X
X> 	(2) you're not going to flame people, and if you do feel
X> 	    strongly inclined to, that you'll punt the problem to
X> 	    somebody else.  If somebody calls you a mud-sucking
X> 	    pig-dog, or is otherwise a twink, let somebody else deal
X> 	    with it...
X
Xi will not flame people on mailing lists. i think that is sufficient.
Xthe expressing of my personal thoughts in my personal mail is a
Xpersonal thing, is it not?
END-of-33
echo x - 34
sed 's/^X//' >34 << 'END-of-34'
XReplied: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 02:32:19 -0600
XReplied: "Chris G Demetriou  "
XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA27532; Thu, 27 Apr 95 02:20:16 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9504270820.AA27532@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU id aa00758;
X          27 Apr 95 4:19 EDT
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XCc: cgd@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: CVS access 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 26 Apr 1995 19:00:46 MDT."
X             <9504270100.AA25701@theos.com> 
XDate: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 04:19:51 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
X> > The point is, we (or at least I; since i've not heard anything to the
X> > contrary, i can only assume quiet agreement) want to be _sure_ that
X> > your future attempts _will be_ "good enough."  Mostly, that means not
X> > flaming anybody related to the NetBSD project, for any reason.  If you
X> > think you've got cause to flame them, take it to somebody else
X> > (e.g. 'core' or me personally), and we'll deal with it.
X> 
X> put it this way. i'm not willing to make my code available unless i
X> commit it myself. would i get access, commit it myself, then purposely
X> go out of my way to make a situation where once again i would not be
X> able to commit stuff?
X
XI think that that makes sense, more or less.
X
X
X> as i've heard it, the entire situation of losing access was a
X> preventative measure against sabotage, and unrelated otherwise from
X> core.
X
Xthat's true.  However, having somebody who's a representative of
XNetBSD be "unsociable" doesn't reflect well on the project.  Everybody
Xwho's got source tree access is, de facto, a representative of the
Xproject in at least some minor way.
X
XNo, that doesn't mean that we're perfect, but it _does_ mean that i
Xwant to make it clear up-front that antisocial behaviour is
Xunacceptable and won't be tolerated.  Basically what i'd mostly like
Xis an acknowledgement of this.
X
XWhen i say "antisocial behaviour won't be tolerated" that means in
Xseveral ways: if you see somebody being "antisocial" then you should
Xpoint it out to them, and you should expect that it will be pointed
Xout to you, if you are.
X
X
X> core doesn't matter to me anymore. it's politics. working on
X> code matters.
X
X*chuckle*  i wish _i_ didn't have to deal with it, frankly.
XI spend half of my time working on alpha code, the rest dealing with
Xbullshit.
X
XOf course, _somebody's_ gotta motivate things like getting a web page
Xset up and done...  And i think it's quite obvious that very _few_
Xpeople are willing to do anything positive regarding "politics."
X
X
X> > 	(2) you're not going to flame people, and if you do feel
X> > 	    strongly inclined to, that you'll punt the problem to
X> > 	    somebody else.  If somebody calls you a mud-sucking
X> > 	    pig-dog, or is otherwise a twink, let somebody else deal
X> > 	    with it...
X> 
X> i will not flame people on mailing lists. i think that is sufficient.
X> the expressing of my personal thoughts in my personal mail is a
X> personal thing, is it not?
X
XThat's sufficient, as long as i don't get people whining into my
Xpersonal mailbox, or into 'core@netbsd.org' about it.
X
XYou'll also note that i'm quite willing to tolerate -- and blow off --
Xsuch whining, if i think it's unjustified.  The easiest way to make
X_sure_ that whining is unjustified is to be civil, even when flaming
Xsomebody.  I think the point is, there are many more subtle and more
Xeffective, and less damaging ways of telling somebody that they're a
Xfucking idiot than saying "you're a fucking idiot."
X
X"whatever."
X
X
XAnyway, i think we should get this show back on the road.  that being
Xsaid, i think you should send some mail to core, saying:
X
X	(1) that you think you can work reasonably with us.  you've
X	    already expressed that to me.  Given that, it can't hurt
X	    to express it to core.  You might also express your
X	    surprise or dismay that exactly one of 'core' stated any
X	    opinion (did anybody else say anything to you privately?),
X	    and you might also explicitly ask paul to "check off" on
X	    you being given "complete write access" to the sparc port.
X
X	(2) That you're going to try -- presumably "try hard", though
X	    that needn't be specified -- to be "annoyingly reasonable"
X	    with people who piss you off, so that they don't get
X	    annoyed at us and say "neener, neener, you shouldn't have
X	    let him come back, you twinks."
X
XYou may think that the latter is completely "political," for some
Xdefintion of "political."  It probably is, but, frankly, we have to
Xpay _some_ attention to politics if we want to be writing code that's
Xused by more than a handful of people.
X
XWhen i think of "politics," i think of Jordan Hubbard, flat out lying
Xabout what's in, or going to be in, FreeBSD, or what the system can
Xdo, or what's wrong with the system.  (worth noting: I've come to
Xunderstand Kolstad, even see him as a reasonable person.  I see jordan
Xas a _liar_, period.)  _that's_ not the game that we, or i, play.
X
Xbut we _do_ need some reasonable amount of "positive public image" if
Xwe're going to keep attracting developers and users.  Do you know how
Xmany people out there in "net-land" think that NetBSD is FreeBSD,
Xported to a bunch of other architectures?
X
XI think that my point (it's hard to stand on a soapbox and rant, if
Xyou don't have a point...  8-), is that _I'M_ the person who tends to
Xdo a fair amount of the lobbying, herding, coercing, to try to make us
X(the NetBSD project) more 'presentable' and 'appetizing' to the public.
Xwhile i'm quite sure that you don't want to be on the front line
Xfighting that battle, every little thing you can do to help NetBSD's
Ximage is a win.
X
X
Xanyway, time to go home...  hopefully we'll get this all resolved by
Xtomorrow night...
X
X
Xlater,
X
Xchris
END-of-34
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XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: CVS access 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 27 Apr 1995 04:19:51 EDT."
X             <9504270820.AA27532@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 02:32:18 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> Apr 27 02:20:23 zeus portmap[27537]: connect from 128.2.198.241 to \
X>     dump(): request from unauthorized host
X
Xsorry, i have real security on my machine.
END-of-35
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XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: CVS access 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 27 Apr 1995 04:36:22 EDT."
X             <9504270836.AA27615@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 02:39:02 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xit is pretty amazing what one can do for security without a filtering
Xrouter.
END-of-36
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XTo: chuck@zeus.theos.com
XSubject: Chris G Demetriou: Re: CVS access 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 12:09:35 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X
X------- Forwarded Message
X
XReplied: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 02:32:19 -0600
XReplied: "Chris G Demetriou  "
XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA27532; Thu, 27 Apr 95 02:20:16 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9504270820.AA27532@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU id aa00758;
X          27 Apr 95 4:19 EDT
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XCc: cgd@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: CVS access 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 26 Apr 1995 19:00:46 MDT."
X             <9504270100.AA25701@theos.com> 
XDate: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 04:19:51 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
X> > The point is, we (or at least I; since i've not heard anything to the
X> > contrary, i can only assume quiet agreement) want to be _sure_ that
X> > your future attempts _will be_ "good enough."  Mostly, that means not
X> > flaming anybody related to the NetBSD project, for any reason.  If you
X> > think you've got cause to flame them, take it to somebody else
X> > (e.g. 'core' or me personally), and we'll deal with it.
X> 
X> put it this way. i'm not willing to make my code available unless i
X> commit it myself. would i get access, commit it myself, then purposely
X> go out of my way to make a situation where once again i would not be
X> able to commit stuff?
X
XI think that that makes sense, more or less.
X
X
X> as i've heard it, the entire situation of losing access was a
X> preventative measure against sabotage, and unrelated otherwise from
X> core.
X
Xthat's true.  However, having somebody who's a representative of
XNetBSD be "unsociable" doesn't reflect well on the project.  Everybody
Xwho's got source tree access is, de facto, a representative of the
Xproject in at least some minor way.
X
XNo, that doesn't mean that we're perfect, but it _does_ mean that i
Xwant to make it clear up-front that antisocial behaviour is
Xunacceptable and won't be tolerated.  Basically what i'd mostly like
Xis an acknowledgement of this.
X
XWhen i say "antisocial behaviour won't be tolerated" that means in
Xseveral ways: if you see somebody being "antisocial" then you should
Xpoint it out to them, and you should expect that it will be pointed
Xout to you, if you are.
X
X
X> core doesn't matter to me anymore. it's politics. working on
X> code matters.
X
X*chuckle*  i wish _i_ didn't have to deal with it, frankly.
XI spend half of my time working on alpha code, the rest dealing with
Xbullshit.
X
XOf course, _somebody's_ gotta motivate things like getting a web page
Xset up and done...  And i think it's quite obvious that very _few_
Xpeople are willing to do anything positive regarding "politics."
X
X
X> > 	(2) you're not going to flame people, and if you do feel
X> > 	    strongly inclined to, that you'll punt the problem to
X> > 	    somebody else.  If somebody calls you a mud-sucking
X> > 	    pig-dog, or is otherwise a twink, let somebody else deal
X> > 	    with it...
X> 
X> i will not flame people on mailing lists. i think that is sufficient.
X> the expressing of my personal thoughts in my personal mail is a
X> personal thing, is it not?
X
XThat's sufficient, as long as i don't get people whining into my
Xpersonal mailbox, or into 'core@netbsd.org' about it.
X
XYou'll also note that i'm quite willing to tolerate -- and blow off --
Xsuch whining, if i think it's unjustified.  The easiest way to make
X_sure_ that whining is unjustified is to be civil, even when flaming
Xsomebody.  I think the point is, there are many more subtle and more
Xeffective, and less damaging ways of telling somebody that they're a
Xfucking idiot than saying "you're a fucking idiot."
X
X"whatever."
X
X
XAnyway, i think we should get this show back on the road.  that being
Xsaid, i think you should send some mail to core, saying:
X
X	(1) that you think you can work reasonably with us.  you've
X	    already expressed that to me.  Given that, it can't hurt
X	    to express it to core.  You might also express your
X	    surprise or dismay that exactly one of 'core' stated any
X	    opinion (did anybody else say anything to you privately?),
X	    and you might also explicitly ask paul to "check off" on
X	    you being given "complete write access" to the sparc port.
X
X	(2) That you're going to try -- presumably "try hard", though
X	    that needn't be specified -- to be "annoyingly reasonable"
X	    with people who piss you off, so that they don't get
X	    annoyed at us and say "neener, neener, you shouldn't have
X	    let him come back, you twinks."
X
XYou may think that the latter is completely "political," for some
Xdefintion of "political."  It probably is, but, frankly, we have to
Xpay _some_ attention to politics if we want to be writing code that's
Xused by more than a handful of people.
X
XWhen i think of "politics," i think of Jordan Hubbard, flat out lying
Xabout what's in, or going to be in, FreeBSD, or what the system can
Xdo, or what's wrong with the system.  (worth noting: I've come to
Xunderstand Kolstad, even see him as a reasonable person.  I see jordan
Xas a _liar_, period.)  _that's_ not the game that we, or i, play.
X
Xbut we _do_ need some reasonable amount of "positive public image" if
Xwe're going to keep attracting developers and users.  Do you know how
Xmany people out there in "net-land" think that NetBSD is FreeBSD,
Xported to a bunch of other architectures?
X
XI think that my point (it's hard to stand on a soapbox and rant, if
Xyou don't have a point...  8-), is that _I'M_ the person who tends to
Xdo a fair amount of the lobbying, herding, coercing, to try to make us
X(the NetBSD project) more 'presentable' and 'appetizing' to the public.
Xwhile i'm quite sure that you don't want to be on the front line
Xfighting that battle, every little thing you can do to help NetBSD's
Ximage is a win.
X
X
Xanyway, time to go home...  hopefully we'll get this all resolved by
Xtomorrow night...
X
X
Xlater,
X
Xchris
X
X------- End of Forwarded Message
X
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XReplied: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 14:40:18 -0600
XReplied: "Paul Kranenburg  "
XReturn-Path: pk@cs.few.eur.nl
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from cs.few.eur.nl (kaa.cs.few.eur.nl) by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA01591; Thu, 27 Apr 95 14:37:37 MDT
XReceived: by cs.few.eur.nl (5.67/EUR)
X	id AA02646; Thu, 27 Apr 95 22:16:47 +0200
XDate: Thu, 27 Apr 95 22:16:47 +0200
XFrom: Paul Kranenburg 
XMessage-Id: <9504272016.AA02646@cs.few.eur.nl>
XTo: deraadt@theos.com
X
XHi Theo,
X
XI've made it clear to `core' that I do not have any objection to you
Xhaving CVS access. I understand you've been chatting with Chris a bit
Xon the subject. Let me make it clear to you that there's no doubt in my
Xmind that you do not actually disagree with Chris' two points of
X"clarification". That much I have come to understand from our previous
Xconversations. I guess Chris might feel about the same. I don't know about
Xthe others.
X
X-pk
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XTo: Paul Kranenburg 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 27 Apr 1995 22:16:47 +0200."
X             <9504272016.AA02646@cs.few.eur.nl> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 14:40:19 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
XThanks.
X
XI think we are getting closer.
X
XI crossed the line of 10,000 lines of diffs a few hours ago.  You
Xcreated a large bug in obio.c as well -- the bootpath does not work
Xthe way you think it does. It was also trivial to optimize in_cksum.c
Xfurther. These diffs do not include the additional 10 or 12 new files.
END-of-39
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XTo: pk@netbsd.org
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XSubject: irqs
XDate: Thu, 04 May 1995 21:12:07 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xi have completely different code for tallying interrupts, so that vmstat -i
Xworks completely correctly.
END-of-40
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XTo: Paul Kranenburg 
XSubject: Re: irqs 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 05 May 1995 16:58:19 +0200."
X             <9505051458.AA10431@cs.few.eur.nl> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Fri, 05 May 1995 21:39:10 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> > i have completely different code for tallying interrupts, so that vmstat -i
X> > works completely correctly.
X> 
X> Oh, tell me..
X> 
X> The thing I noticed is that vmstat -i still also displays `intrnames' et.al.
X
Xi think that is ok. it should show both, so that you can see a total
Xof each intr#, as well as what each device is using. i think that is
Xcool. anyways, my code does the correct adding for all devices as
Xevents, but still does level counting correctly too.
END-of-41
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XTo: Paul Kranenburg 
XSubject: Re: irqs 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 06 May 1995 11:24:51 +0200."
X             <9505060924.AA04457@cs.few.eur.nl> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Sat, 06 May 1995 22:04:15 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> > anyways, my code does the correct adding for all devices as
X> > events, but still does level counting correctly too.
X> 
X> Do you count `events' at different places (ie. in locore in stead of
X> individual interrupt handlers)? Trying to figure out how it can be
X> "completely different" ... :-)
X
XIt lets assembly language know where the counter is that should be
Xincremented, a counter inside a registered event. Perhaps you wrote
Xsomething similar more recevently.
X
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XTo: pk@netbsd.org
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XSubject: fd.c
XDate: Tue, 09 May 1995 23:01:00 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xthere are sun4c machines with 82077 floppy chips. Got one right here.
XThere apparently is a sun4m machine of some kind with an 82072 as
Xwell, I am _told_.. that might not be true.
X
XWhat's the deal with the cvs account? I'll be back in Calgary in about
X12 days. The moment the account is ready, I can start merging. I've got 2
Xother netbsd ports I'm responsible for now.
END-of-43
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XTo: Paul Kranenburg 
XSubject: Re: fd.c 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 May 1995 09:15:42 +0200."
X             <9505100715.AA10622@cs.few.eur.nl> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Wed, 10 May 1995 02:57:41 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
XI sent two pieces of mail to core. Both of them were not replied
Xto.
XI am supposed to communicate with core, but apparently core (besides you
Xand chris) do not wish to communicate with me.
X
XI have no idea what else I need to say to core.
X
XBy the way, agreeing to something with is assumed with any other people,
Xisn't the same as having it assumed.
END-of-44
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XTo: core@netbsd.org
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XSubject: back
XDate: Wed, 17 May 1995 09:36:20 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xi'm back from Singapore. it's clammy, exceedingly hot, and rather
Xgross there.
X
Xdo we have a current holdup or not? anything i need to still say so
Xthat we can get onto the job of letting people get these sources?
X
Xalso, i think Chuck would benefit from source access as well.  he has
Xmanaged in under two weeks get a multiuser diskless port running on
Xthe mvme147 68030 card. i am going to be adding support for the
Xmvme162/7 68040 and mvme172/7 68060 cards to the port as well.
Xbecause the code was based on the da30 port -- and the da30 port had
Xfallen way behind -- access to logs and diffs in the amiga and hp300
Xports would be very useful for Chuck.
X
Xhe has also done some serious revamping of the libnetboot code for a 2
Xstage boot for the machine, and he might be interested in merging that
Xhimself.
END-of-45
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XTo: "Charles M. Hannum" 
Xcc: deraadt@theos.com, port-sparc@netbsd.org
XSubject: Re: new test kernel 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 19 May 1995 13:51:08 EDT."
X             <199505191751.NAA24116@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Fri, 19 May 1995 11:57:38 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X>    (i had to make a small but disgusting change to the MI scsi code,
X>    because there isn't a way to find out which target/unit a particular
X>    device is on, well, at least not when dk_establish() is called. i'm
X>    searching for a better change to the scsi code, but nothing looks
X>    better at the moment.)
X> 
X> One of the other ports (Amiga, I think), after some discussion with
X> me, added a routine to the SCSI code that will look up the device's
X> unit number based on a bus:target:lun triplet.  This is very easy to
X> do.
X
Xdoes this routine exist now, or when will it be in the trunk?
XI couldn't find anything in the trunk.
X
Xdoes it work before dk_establish() has been called by the scsi
Xsubsystem? it needs to work that early, since the sparc port does
Xbootpath calculations at that time (doing them later on would be an
Xextremely difficult change.)
X
Xdoes it tell me whether the device is an sd, st, cd, or otherwise?
XI'm not sure if I need this information, but it might be nice.
END-of-46
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XReplied: Sun, 21 May 1995 21:09:04 -0600
XReplied: "Chris G Demetriou  Theo de Raadt , core@netbsd.org"
XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA28338; Sun, 21 May 95 01:32:21 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9505210732.AA28338@theos.com>
XReceived: from LOCALHOST by LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU id aa01415;
X          21 May 95 3:31 EDT
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XCc: core@netbsd.org
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: back 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 17 May 1995 09:36:20 MDT."
X             <9505171536.AA02495@theos.com> 
XDate: Sun, 21 May 1995 03:31:35 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
Xsorry it took me so long to respond to this...  of course, i've not
Xseen anybody else respond, either...  *sigh*
X
X
X> i'm back from Singapore. it's clammy, exceedingly hot, and rather
X> gross there.
X
Xyah; i heard you got sick.  "ick."
X
X
X> do we have a current holdup or not? anything i need to still say so
X> that we can get onto the job of letting people get these sources?
X
XIn the only "public" exchange of mail (i.e. sent to both you and all
Xof 'core'): (1) you requested source tree access (that was your
Xinitial piece of mail), and (2) i responded with a couple of
Xquestions/statements, neither of which were commented on by anybody.
X
XI'd like to know, "for the record" (i.e. not in private mail to me; in
Xmail to 'core') what your responses to them are.
X
X
X> also, i think Chuck would benefit from source access as well.
X
XI actually asked him, a bit ago (when i found out that he had the mvme
Xcode working) if he wanted to be the mvme port's maintainer.  he was
X... very non-commital.  So i didn't push it.
X
X
X
Xcgd
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XReplied: Sun, 21 May 1995 21:27:14 -0600
XReplied: "Paul Kranenburg  "
XReturn-Path: pk@cs.few.eur.nl
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from cs.few.eur.nl (kaa.cs.few.eur.nl) by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA00484; Sun, 21 May 95 09:00:16 MDT
XReceived: by cs.few.eur.nl (5.67/EUR)
X	id AA12471; Sun, 21 May 95 13:33:35 +0200
XFrom: Paul Kranenburg 
XMessage-Id: <9505211133.AA12471@cs.few.eur.nl>
XSubject: Re: back
XTo: deraadt@theos.com (Theo de Raadt)
XDate: Sun, 21 May 1995 13:33:35 +0200 (MET DST)
XCc: core@netbsd.org
XIn-Reply-To: <9505171536.AA02495@theos.com> from "Theo de Raadt" at May 17, 95 09:36:20 am
XX-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL13]
XMime-Version: 1.0
XContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
XContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
XContent-Length: 643       
X
X> do we have a current holdup or not?
X
XAs I've mentioned before (and Chris too, just now) the previous series
Xof exchanges of opinions on `core' hasn't been completed. Let's finish
X"the protocol". Let me attempt to help iron out the remaining ripples
Xwrt. `those with source access' by re-stating the obvious: it's a bunch
Xof people with interesting contributions to make to NetBSD, who know what
Xthey are doing (most of the time:-) when diddling the sources, and are
Xcomitted to take responsibility to ensure that a fine, homogeneous system
Xis the result of their labour (even when faced with different opinions
Xon particular details).
X
X
X-pk
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XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: SQEC sbus quad ethernet controller? 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 21 May 1995 20:37:46 EDT."
X             <9505220038.AA02829@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Sun, 21 May 1995 19:01:55 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xthe problem with dec hardware is that, even when they manage to do
Xsomething right (and they do that often) noone else picks up on it.
X
Xthus we continue in the endless loop of hardware of buying/building
Xwith hardware that is optimal in some new way, but suboptimal in all
Xthe old ways that used to count, then the next rev comes out, and it's
Xfaster, cheaper, smaller and once again it's a programmers nightmare.
X
Xlike the vax dh serial board, which did magic for you with dma
Xengines.  and now finally, 15 years later, the cirrus logic chips come
Xout (of course, they now have one that does ppp for you, too).
X
Xjust look at the growth in scsi controller device drivers as we come
Xto `more sophisticated' scsi controllers.
X
Xand then my second (and the best example, if you've ever looked at it)
Xis what it takes to do an fddi driver from scratch if you build a
Xboard with the chips. it's impossible because a smit implimentation
Xrequires on the order of 10 man years to write.
X
Xalso, that's why i like dec's fddi cards. they're smart cards.
X
Xreally, not even those chips that we normally call "nice" -- for
Xexample the lance -- are actually all that nice. they're kinda gross.
X
Xoh well, rant over. and two days from now i'll be writing an i82596
Xethernet driver -- a 32 bit ethernet chip that does in-memory
Xdescriptors, but at least it does "bus snooping" to see the
Xdescriptors change..
END-of-49
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XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: SQEC sbus quad ethernet controller? 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 21 May 1995 21:09:35 EDT."
X             <9505220110.AA02950@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Sun, 21 May 1995 20:15:11 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xis there a way you could get docs to me? it sounds really neat, i'd
Xlike to read about it.
END-of-50
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XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
Xcc: Theo de Raadt , core@netbsd.org
XSubject: Re: back 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 21 May 1995 03:31:35 EDT."
X             <9505210732.AA28338@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Sun, 21 May 1995 21:09:04 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> sorry it took me so long to respond to this...  of course, i've not
X> seen anybody else respond, either...  *sigh*
X
Xthis has bothered me a fair bit. the mail suggests that i'm supposed
Xto communicate with the core group, yet when i try to, i get nothing
Xin return. i don't think that is right.
X
X> In the only "public" exchange of mail (i.e. sent to both you and all
X> of 'core'): (1) you requested source tree access (that was your
X> initial piece of mail), and (2) i responded with a couple of
X> questions/statements, neither of which were commented on by anybody.
X> 
X> I'd like to know, "for the record" (i.e. not in private mail to me; in
X> mail to 'core') what your responses to them are.
X
Xyou asked if i would communicate with core -- as has been seen i have
Xbeen trying. i'm somewhat dissapointed at the little that i have
Xgotten.
X
Xyou also asked how i would react to users; i responded with something
Xlike: that if it was a private piece of mail i expected it to be kept
Xprivate and could say what i wanted to, otherwise you can expect high
Xstandards. i think that is fair.
X
X> > also, i think Chuck would benefit from source access as well.
X> 
X> I actually asked him, a bit ago (when i found out that he had the mvme
X> code working) if he wanted to be the mvme port's maintainer.  he was
X> ... very non-commital.  So i didn't push it.
X
Xit's a funny situation. chuck is a non-commital person. he and i
Xtalked a little about cvs access (after i sent that mail) -- i think
Xhe will remain non-commital, and i think it is because he doesn't want
Xto gain any of the responsibilities before seeing the benefits. but he
Xstill does excellent initial work (all the code you've seen from him
Xhas been polished by me, some more than others, but none the less his
Xinitial work IS excellent). i think he would benefit from having
Xsource access, even if his major use turns out to be "looking" at
Xdiffs as he writes other chunks of code.
X
Xhe wasted some serious chunks of time because he didn't have cvs
Xaccess (various differences between the outdated da30 port, the hp300
Xport, current, lance drivers from here and there, etc). even if there
Xisn't a defined role to cause chuck to receive CVS access, i think he
Xwould benefit greatly, and i don't think it'll be long before he finds
Xa niche.
X
Xfor those who aren't filled in on the details, i'm going to be
Xextending the mvme68k port to other cards that chuck does not have,
Xand i am getting paid to do so.
X
X(he did the right thing to start with the da30 port, by the way. he's
Xported the da30 port to another box before, so he was most familiar
Xwith it. it is config.new, and compared to other m68k ports it is
Xtiny).
END-of-51
echo x - 52
sed 's/^X//' >52 << 'END-of-52'
XReturn-Path: deraadt@theos.com
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from LOCALHOST.theos.com by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA03534; Sun, 21 May 95 21:09:05 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9505220309.AA03534@theos.com>
XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XCc: Theo de Raadt , core@netbsd.org
XSubject: Re: back 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 21 May 1995 03:31:35 EDT."
X             <9505210732.AA28338@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Sun, 21 May 1995 21:09:04 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> sorry it took me so long to respond to this...  of course, i've not
X> seen anybody else respond, either...  *sigh*
X
Xthis has bothered me a fair bit. the mail suggests that i'm supposed
Xto communicate with the core group, yet when i try to, i get nothing
Xin return. i don't think that is right.
X
X> In the only "public" exchange of mail (i.e. sent to both you and all
X> of 'core'): (1) you requested source tree access (that was your
X> initial piece of mail), and (2) i responded with a couple of
X> questions/statements, neither of which were commented on by anybody.
X> 
X> I'd like to know, "for the record" (i.e. not in private mail to me; in
X> mail to 'core') what your responses to them are.
X
Xyou asked if i would communicate with core -- as has been seen i have
Xbeen trying. i'm somewhat dissapointed at the little that i have
Xgotten.
X
Xyou also asked how i would react to users; i responded with something
Xlike: that if it was a private piece of mail i expected it to be kept
Xprivate and could say what i wanted to, otherwise you can expect high
Xstandards. i think that is fair.
X
X> > also, i think Chuck would benefit from source access as well.
X> 
X> I actually asked him, a bit ago (when i found out that he had the mvme
X> code working) if he wanted to be the mvme port's maintainer.  he was
X> ... very non-commital.  So i didn't push it.
X
Xit's a funny situation. chuck is a non-commital person. he and i
Xtalked a little about cvs access (after i sent that mail) -- i think
Xhe will remain non-commital, and i think it is because he doesn't want
Xto gain any of the responsibilities before seeing the benefits. but he
Xstill does excellent initial work (all the code you've seen from him
Xhas been polished by me, some more than others, but none the less his
Xinitial work IS excellent). i think he would benefit from having
Xsource access, even if his major use turns out to be "looking" at
Xdiffs as he writes other chunks of code.
X
Xhe wasted some serious chunks of time because he didn't have cvs
Xaccess (various differences between the outdated da30 port, the hp300
Xport, current, lance drivers from here and there, etc). even if there
Xisn't a defined role to cause chuck to receive CVS access, i think he
Xwould benefit greatly, and i don't think it'll be long before he finds
Xa niche.
X
Xfor those who aren't filled in on the details, i'm going to be
Xextending the mvme68k port to other cards that chuck does not have,
Xand i am getting paid to do so.
X
X(he did the right thing to start with the da30 port, by the way. he's
Xported the da30 port to another box before, so he was most familiar
Xwith it. it is config.new, and compared to other m68k ports it is
Xtiny).
END-of-52
echo x - 53
sed 's/^X//' >53 << 'END-of-53'
XReplied: Sun, 21 May 1995 21:50:46 -0600
XReplied: ""Charles M. Hannum"  deraadt@theos.com, Chris_G_Demetriou@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu,
XReplied: core@NetBSD.ORG"
XReturn-Path: mycroft@gnu.ai.mit.edu
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA03728; Sun, 21 May 95 21:37:02 MDT
XReceived: by duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id XAA18781; Sun, 21 May 1995 23:36:58 -0400
XDate: Sun, 21 May 1995 23:36:58 -0400
XMessage-Id: <199505220336.XAA18781@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
XFrom: "Charles M. Hannum" 
XTo: deraadt@theos.com
XCc: Chris_G_Demetriou@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu, core@NetBSD.ORG
XIn-Reply-To: <9505220309.AA03534@theos.com> (message from Theo de Raadt on Sun, 21 May 1995 21:09:04 -0600)
XSubject: Re: back
X
X
X   this has bothered me a fair bit. the mail suggests that i'm supposed
X   to communicate with the core group, yet when i try to, i get nothing
X   in return.
X
XThat's *not* true.  What you got was a set of questions from Chris,
Xthat I, among others, have been waiting to see answered.  Your
Xreluctance to answer them is not a step in the right direction.
X
X   you asked if i would communicate with core -- as has been seen i have
X   been trying. i'm somewhat dissapointed at the little that i have
X   gotten.
X
XWhat, precisely, did you expect?  Chris dealt with all of my concerns
Xat that point.  There is no need for each of us to reply to your mail;
Xif we have differing opinions, then we will discuss them amongst
Xourselves.
X
X   you also asked how i would react to users; i responded with something
X   like: that if it was a private piece of mail i expected it to be kept
X   private and could say what i wanted to, [...]
X
XProvided that it's clear that you in no way speak for the NetBSD
Xproject, and disregarding libel for the moment, it is none of our
Xconcern what you say to people privately.  However, I will remind you
Xthat your haste to say `what [you] wanted to', often including
Xvitriolic flames, is part of what got us to this point to being with.
X
END-of-53
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sed 's/^X//' >54 << 'END-of-54'
XTo: "Charles M. Hannum" 
Xcc: deraadt@theos.com, Chris_G_Demetriou@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu,
X    core@netbsd.org
XSubject: Re: back 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 21 May 1995 23:36:58 EDT."
X             <199505220336.XAA18781@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Sun, 21 May 1995 21:50:46 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X>    this has bothered me a fair bit. the mail suggests that i'm supposed
X>    to communicate with the core group, yet when i try to, i get nothing
X>    in return.
X> 
X> That's *not* true.  What you got was a set of questions from Chris,
X> that I, among others, have been waiting to see answered.  Your
X> reluctance to answer them is not a step in the right direction.
X
Xfirst, you suggest that you speak for the others as well. this is the
Xfirst time that i have heard anything of the kind -- i was led to
Xbelieve that what Chris posted was what Chris thought, and that he
Xfelt others would speak up. i know you guys have archives -- go read
Xthe mail (i just double checked).
X
Xi do not feel that sending mail to core and receiving mail back from
Xone person -- who expresses to me that he wishes others had something
Xpublic to say -- is a good indication of core communicating with me.
X
X>    you asked if i would communicate with core -- as has been seen i have
X>    been trying. i'm somewhat dissapointed at the little that i have
X>    gotten.
X> 
X> What, precisely, did you expect?  Chris dealt with all of my concerns
X> at that point.  There is no need for each of us to reply to your mail;
X> if we have differing opinions, then we will discuss them amongst
X> ourselves.
X
XChris has expressed to me, a few times, his dissapointment that noone
Xelse has anything public to say on the matter.  Chris, do you want to
Xconfirm this? i expressed my dissapointment to Chris as well.
X
X> Provided that it's clear that you in no way speak for the NetBSD
X> project, and disregarding libel for the moment, it is none of our
X> concern what you say to people privately.  However, I will remind you
X> that your haste to say `what [you] wanted to', often including
X> vitriolic flames, is part of what got us to this point to being with.
X
XCharles, i feel your answer to be a rather virtiolic flame.
X
Xi'm somewhat unhappy to hear you say what you are saying, or the tone
Xyou use.  you are not being nice.  i do not understand what you expect
Xto gain from saying things as you have.
END-of-54
echo x - 55
sed 's/^X//' >55 << 'END-of-55'
XReturn-Path: deraadt@theos.com
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from LOCALHOST.theos.com by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA03784; Sun, 21 May 95 21:50:52 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9505220350.AA03784@theos.com>
XTo: "Charles M. Hannum" 
XCc: deraadt@theos.com, Chris_G_Demetriou@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu,
X        core@netbsd.org
XSubject: Re: back 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 21 May 1995 23:36:58 EDT."
X             <199505220336.XAA18781@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Sun, 21 May 1995 21:50:46 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X>    this has bothered me a fair bit. the mail suggests that i'm supposed
X>    to communicate with the core group, yet when i try to, i get nothing
X>    in return.
X> 
X> That's *not* true.  What you got was a set of questions from Chris,
X> that I, among others, have been waiting to see answered.  Your
X> reluctance to answer them is not a step in the right direction.
X
Xfirst, you suggest that you speak for the others as well. this is the
Xfirst time that i have heard anything of the kind -- i was led to
Xbelieve that what Chris posted was what Chris thought, and that he
Xfelt others would speak up. i know you guys have archives -- go read
Xthe mail (i just double checked).
X
Xi do not feel that sending mail to core and receiving mail back from
Xone person -- who expresses to me that he wishes others had something
Xpublic to say -- is a good indication of core communicating with me.
X
X>    you asked if i would communicate with core -- as has been seen i have
X>    been trying. i'm somewhat dissapointed at the little that i have
X>    gotten.
X> 
X> What, precisely, did you expect?  Chris dealt with all of my concerns
X> at that point.  There is no need for each of us to reply to your mail;
X> if we have differing opinions, then we will discuss them amongst
X> ourselves.
X
XChris has expressed to me, a few times, his dissapointment that noone
Xelse has anything public to say on the matter.  Chris, do you want to
Xconfirm this? i expressed my dissapointment to Chris as well.
X
X> Provided that it's clear that you in no way speak for the NetBSD
X> project, and disregarding libel for the moment, it is none of our
X> concern what you say to people privately.  However, I will remind you
X> that your haste to say `what [you] wanted to', often including
X> vitriolic flames, is part of what got us to this point to being with.
X
XCharles, i feel your answer to be a rather virtiolic flame.
X
Xi'm somewhat unhappy to hear you say what you are saying, or the tone
Xyou use.  you are not being nice.  i do not understand what you expect
Xto gain from saying things as you have.
END-of-55
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sed 's/^X//' >56 << 'END-of-56'
XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA05052; Sun, 21 May 95 22:58:56 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9505220458.AA05052@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU id aa00990;
X          22 May 95 0:58 EDT
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XCc: "Charles M. Hannum" , core@netbsd.org
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: back 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 21 May 1995 21:50:46 MDT."
X             <9505220350.AA03784@theos.com> 
XDate: Mon, 22 May 1995 00:58:42 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
X[ your second piece of mail first! ]
X
X> >    this has bothered me a fair bit. the mail suggests that i'm supposed
X> >    to communicate with the core group, yet when i try to, i get nothing
X> >    in return.
X> > 
X> > That's *not* true.  What you got was a set of questions from Chris,
X> > that I, among others, have been waiting to see answered.  Your
X> > reluctance to answer them is not a step in the right direction.
X> 
X> first, you suggest that you speak for the others as well. this is the
X> first time that i have heard anything of the kind -- i was led to
X> believe that what Chris posted was what Chris thought, and that he
X> felt others would speak up. i know you guys have archives -- go read
X> the mail (i just double checked).
X
XCharles wasn't "speaking for others" -- at most he was echoing
Xopinions that others stated, publically, even:
X
XI posted what I thought.  I was waiting for a public answer.
XCharles agreed with Chris thought.  Charles was waiting for a public answer.
X
XTherefore, Charles, "among others," was waiting for answers to those
Xquestions.
X
XIt's not as if Charles is inventing something, here...
X
X
X> i do not feel that sending mail to core and receiving mail back from
X> one person -- who expresses to me that he wishes others had something
X> public to say -- is a good indication of core communicating with me.
X
Xcore can 'elect' a representative to "communicate" with you, or can
Xallow somebody to do all of the talking.
X
XWhat i'd expresed -- that i wish there were public comment from the
Xrest of core -- was my desire to _avoid_ being such a "mouth."
X
X
X> Chris has expressed to me, a few times, his dissapointment that noone
X> else has anything public to say on the matter.  Chris, do you want to
X> confirm this? i expressed my dissapointment to Chris as well.
X
XI can't disagree with this; a public 'ACK' from others in 'core'
Xwould have been nice.  However, it's by no means _necessary_.
X
X
X> > Provided that it's clear that you in no way speak for the NetBSD
X> > project, and disregarding libel for the moment, it is none of our
X> > concern what you say to people privately.  However, I will remind you
X> > that your haste to say `what [you] wanted to', often including
X> > vitriolic flames, is part of what got us to this point to being with.
X> 
X> Charles, i feel your answer to be a rather virtiolic flame.
X
XUmm, his answer was not particularly vitriolic.  Indeed, it wasn't
Xeven a _flame_.  It was a (rather calm) statement, in my opinion.
X
X
X> i'm somewhat unhappy to hear you say what you are saying, or the tone
X> you use.  you are not being nice.  i do not understand what you expect
X> to gain from saying things as you have.
X
XThough i can't say for sure why he wrote what he wrote (because i'm
Xnot him!), it _seems_ to me that the reason that Charles wrote what he
Xwrote was that he felt that you were fundamentally misrepresenting at
Xleast one issue.  (Namely, you _did_ receive a response from core,
Xthat you never publically acknowledged.)
X
X
X
X
Xcgd
END-of-56
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sed 's/^X//' >57 << 'END-of-57'
XReplied: Mon, 22 May 1995 01:31:52 -0600
XReplied: "Chris G Demetriou  Theo de Raadt , core@netbsd.org"
XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA07582; Mon, 22 May 95 00:16:25 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9505220616.AA07582@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU id aa01072;
X          22 May 95 2:16 EDT
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XCc: core@netbsd.org
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: back 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 21 May 1995 21:09:04 MDT."
X             <9505220309.AA03534@theos.com> 
XDate: Mon, 22 May 1995 02:16:09 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
X> > sorry it took me so long to respond to this...  of course, i've not
X> > seen anybody else respond, either...  *sigh*
X> 
X> this has bothered me a fair bit. the mail suggests that i'm supposed
X> to communicate with the core group, yet when i try to, i get nothing
X> in return. i don't think that is right.
X
XAs charles noted, this _isn't_ true; you _did_ get a response.
X
XAs I've noted in several places previously, i am less than pleased at
Xthe amount of public backing my response received.  However, it _was_
Xa response.
X
X
X> you asked if i would communicate with core -- as has been seen i have
X> been trying. i'm somewhat dissapointed at the little that i have
X> gotten.
X
XThus far, i've seen four messages from you to 'core':
X	(1) the initial one, which i responded to
X	(2) the second one (yesterday?), which i and paul (i think...)
X		responded to
X	(3) the third, which charles responded to and which i am no
X		responding to, and
X	(4) the fourth, in response to charles's message, in which
X		you indicated that his message was a "vitriolic flame,"
X		apprently because he 'called' you on a statement
X		that you made in this one.
X
X
XWhat is communication?  Why do i say the above, and the other things
Xthat i've said, in the way that i've said them?
X
XTo me, communication is the honest and open sharing of ideas and
Xfeelings about a particular matter.
X
XThat should pretty much explain where i'm coming from, in this entire
Xconversation.  "Honest and open sharing of ideas," in a
Xnon-confrontational environment, is what i want.
X
XFor the most part, i'm relatively unconcerned about this; for the most
Xpart, as long as things stay 'technical' i don't see there being many
Xcommunication problems.
X
XHowever, i _do_ see things like you (apparently) getting angry when
Xyou're corrected about a misrepresentation you've made as being a
Xproblem.  If statements you make are less than intellectually honest,
Xand you aren't willing to allow them to pointed out to you, then there
X_is_ a problem.  If you aren't willing to even discuss them
X"peacefully" then there's a _serious_ problem.
X
X
X> you also asked how i would react to users; i responded with something
X> like: that if it was a private piece of mail i expected it to be kept
X> private and could say what i wanted to, otherwise you can expect high
X> standards. i think that is fair.
X
XThis is more of a concern to me, honestly.
X
XIt is my firm opinion that, in "professional" environments, you
Xshould behave as if every piece of mail you write _is_ a public
Xmessage.  To me, that means that if you're interacting with people
Xworking on NetBSD, or even interested in working on NetBSD, that it
Xshould be "professional," and that even _if_ it is sent from you
Xprivately, that it should be polite, reasonable, etc.  (Obviously,
Xpeople should treat you in the same way.  However, just because they
Xdon't doesn't give you license to be "non-professional.")
X
XI want _EVERYONE_ working on NetBSD to behave in a professional
Xmanner, in public _AND_ in private.  Obviously, the latter can't be
Xenforced, but if people complain about "unprofessional" behaviour,
Xthen it doesn't rightly matter _where_ it occurred.
X
X
X
X
Xchris
END-of-57
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sed 's/^X//' >58 << 'END-of-58'
XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
Xcc: Theo de Raadt , core@netbsd.org
XSubject: Re: back 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 May 1995 02:16:09 EDT."
X             <9505220616.AA07582@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Mon, 22 May 1995 01:31:51 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> As charles noted, this _isn't_ true; you _did_ get a response.
X> 
X> As I've noted in several places previously, i am less than pleased at
X> the amount of public backing my response received.  However, it _was_
X> a response.
X
Xyes, i did get one response. i communicated with you (and with paul)
Xthat i had some real problems with what was being asked for in it. if
Xyou forget the details, please go back and read the original mail
Xagain. i feel that i am being singled out to make promises that noone
Xelse is required to make. then i hear that that is because i've been
Xbad. then i am told that no, i won't be told when i was bad. then i
Xhear from some other people that they have some theories or facts
Xabout what actually happened, and that it is really embarrasing to
Xcore. but i don't know what is true. all i know is that i was hurt,
Xand that when i look back at the facts of it, i feel that taking
Xport-sparc away was VERY unfair. but above all, it is clear that i
Xreally only want to be in this for technical reasons, but that clearly
Xisn't enough -- i must make promises. then 20 or so people speak up,
Xand even though i say nothing, a mailing list is moderated so that
Xthings can't get through -- even though (two of?) the people using the
Xcode say that they feel the discussion is very relevant, since it is
Xdisgussing ways to get technical improvements back into the stream.
X
Xso every time i talk to core they want me to say that something -- and
Xi won't be told what specifically it was or be able to defend myself
X-- requires me to admit that i was wrong by making promises that it --
Xwhatever it was -- won't happen again. which is an immediate reminder
Xthat i was treated unfairly.
X
Xi'm sorry, but this smells like a kangaroo court.
X
Xyes, perhaps you consider this misrepresentation of the facts, but it
Xis what i (and others feel the same as me) feel and think. of course i
Xshowed that mail that chris sent to a few people who i talk to often,
Xbecause they are my friends, and i work closely with them. and they
Xtoo were confused as to what to say in reply.
X
Xremember that i have made absolutely no public statements about these
Xhappenings at all, and i think you guys should be happy about that.  i
Xcan't help if you take the last sentence as a threat, some of you
Xmight, how would i know -- because i don't know the facts of what i
Xdid to cause this, do I? nothing beyond "you've been bad, you'd been
Xbad before and warned". with a silent implication that none of you bad
Xbeen bad enough cause this to happen to you. i've been told nothing
Xexcept that something -- which i can be told nothing about -- caused
Xme to be kicked out, even though previous instances led to it too, of
Xwhich none have been pointed out. and a perusal of the public mailing
Xlists show that i didn't flame very much.
X
Xso i can only assume it was private mail (or another more local
Xpossibility, which if it was the case, ties in with some other really
Xdigusting and vile politics someone at work did against me), and so
Xprivate mail was used against me. great. i was tempted a few months
Xago to go back into my mail archives and pull out a few other pieces
Xof private mail that i've seen cc'd.
X
Xso, i, left with absolutely no facts about what the thing i did that
Xwas wrong, am supposed to make promises that noone else makes. i'm
Xsupposed to place limits on myself -- that apparently everyone else is
Xassumed to have to stick to, yet with me it cannot be assumed and i
Xhave to make promises. it sounds very reasonable except the cause for
Xme being kicked out remains a secret. to make promises to people who i
Xfeel have been less than straightforward with me. but i've got a
Xlittle header on my mail too now that says my mail can't be
Xforwarded. so you'll never see any of the private mail that i send to
Xanyone, or be able to redistribute it to use it against me, right?
Xbecause if they did, that would be them being unprofessional?
X
Xyes, i'm angry.
X
Xdo you think that i'm supposed to take all this lying down? do you
Xthink it is trivial to approach people who have taken what i love to
Xdo, in the same week while a fellow employee is lying about my actions
Xto my boss and to my friends, and i have tendonitis so badly that i
Xcannot type more than 30 minutes a day or ride my bike; and then even
Xthe way it is announced to the world is quiet, elusive, toned down --
Xthat it is posted to a newsgroup that very few people read, that
Xport-sparc is not even told of me being kicked out, only of me being
Xreplaced?
X
Xwhen i talk of what i love -- am i talking about core? no. i'm talking
Xabout the sparc port. development and enhancement. technical
Xthings. which should not be shrouded by politics if possible. chris
Xmentions often that he finds the politics to be overbearing, yet after
X2 months of talking to you we've progressed very little, if not
Xnowhere. the politics keep dragging on,
X
Xand perhaps this is all just a misrepresentation of the facts by me
Xagain, but it seems as if the politics are severely overshadowing the
Xtechology. and perhaps that's because you feel you need some
Xprotection of some sort, a little letter that allows you later on to
Xsay "you promised, and you didn't do it, and we got you to agree that
Xyour private mail did matter, and the guy did mailbomb you, and you
Xwere angry because he mailbombed you for the wrong reason, but that
Xdoesn't matter because he was a netbsd person, and you should have
Xcome to us so we could tell him to stop mailbombing you because he
Xmisunderstood something you said, so you are out, again."
X
Xam i making all this up? perhaps i am, but you don't have to dream
Xmy dreams.
X
X
X> To me, communication is the honest and open sharing of ideas and
X> feelings about a particular matter.
X
Xthat is what the above is. if it has anger in it, then that is what is
Xin it. it is an honest and open sharing of ideas and feelings. those
Xfeelings include anger, hurt, apprehension, loss. but i'm trying to
Xfind a way to forget about that past stuff, and you're not making it
Xeasy.
X
Xi felt ripped off because i could not make a proper technical
Xcontribution anymore (not having CVS access makes things a lot harder
Xthan expected), i felt ripped off because port-sparc and core were
Xmixed into one bag and both were taken away. i actually felt glad that
Xcore wasn't a worry anymore.
X
Xit took a long time before i even communicated with any of the people
Xanymore -- i was angry because my friends were given spotty
Xinformation (imagine getting mail from an avid follower, 2 months
Xlater, asking what is going on -- he being totally clueless about what
Xhad transpired, and finding nothing in his mailing list archives,
Xthough subscribed to 10 of them -- this happened with a number of
Xpeople -- noone reads that mailing list the message went out to).
X
Xand i kept programming (well, once my hands were slightly better).
Xbecause that is the important part.
X
X> That should pretty much explain where i'm coming from, in this entire
X> conversation.  "Honest and open sharing of ideas," in a
X> non-confrontational environment, is what i want.
X
Xthat's what i've done above. i'm trying not to be confrontational -- i
Xam being honest; i am even being honest about my anger. if you think
Xit is confrontational, please go back and read it again as if it
Xwasn't, because quite often i fail to express properly in words.
X
X> However, i _do_ see things like you (apparently) getting angry when
X> you're corrected about a misrepresentation you've made as being a
X> problem.
X
Xthat piece of mail made me angry because once again it said i was bad
Xand then avoided telling me when. these rough outlines of me being bad
Xare not going to be enough if you expect things to work out. i suspect
Xthat core is going to have to either drop that entire "being bad"
Xissue completely, or bring it all to the forefront for a small time --
Xtell me all if it and let me defend myself if i can. it's the fair and
Xmodern way of doing things.
X
Xyou may now tell me that it isn't possible to fill me in on the
Xdetails because it is private, but i don't see how i can accept that.
Xyou cannot expect me to accept guilt for something i know nothing
Xabout, especially when it so easy for someone to be setup via email.
Xthere are many things that were going on in the previous 2 months
Xbefore your actions that you do not know about.
X
X> It is my firm opinion that, in "professional" environments, you
X> should behave as if every piece of mail you write _is_ a public
X> message.  To me, that means that if you're interacting with people
X> working on NetBSD, or even interested in working on NetBSD, that it
X> should be "professional," and that even _if_ it is sent from you
X> privately, that it should be polite, reasonable, etc.  (Obviously,
X> people should treat you in the same way.  However, just because they
X> don't doesn't give you license to be "non-professional.")
X> 
X> I want _EVERYONE_ working on NetBSD to behave in a professional
X> manner, in public _AND_ in private.  Obviously, the latter can't be
X> enforced, but if people complain about "unprofessional" behaviour,
X> then it doesn't rightly matter _where_ it occurred.
X
Xi want to do technical things, and i want these kinds of discussions
Xover with. you are talking about being polite, yet even this piece of
Xmail (i know you didn't intend it as such, but none the less..), by
Xbringing up bad memories for me -- about things which core refuses to
Xbe straight with me about -- it is not _perceived_ as polite by me.
X
Xso, as i've said before to a number of people, i think we have three
Xchoices before us
X
X(1) you be straight with me about how i was "bad"
X(2) you stop trying to treat me as a special case who must assume
X    guilt by fiat
X(3) we just get to technical things
X
Xas long as you struggle to make case (2) happen, you will find that
Xcase (1) is a concern for me. or, we can just get on with (3).
X
Xremember, i've _attempted_ to be honest about my feelings and thoughts.
Xi suspect i've failed.
END-of-58
echo x - 59
sed 's/^X//' >59 << 'END-of-59'
XReplied: Mon, 22 May 1995 15:08:50 -0600
XReplied: "Theo de Raadt  "
XReturn-Path: deraadt@theos.com
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from LOCALHOST.theos.com by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA07912; Mon, 22 May 95 01:31:53 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9505220731.AA07912@theos.com>
XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XCc: Theo de Raadt , core@netbsd.org
XSubject: Re: back 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 22 May 1995 02:16:09 EDT."
X             <9505220616.AA07582@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Mon, 22 May 1995 01:31:51 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> As charles noted, this _isn't_ true; you _did_ get a response.
X> 
X> As I've noted in several places previously, i am less than pleased at
X> the amount of public backing my response received.  However, it _was_
X> a response.
X
Xyes, i did get one response. i communicated with you (and with paul)
Xthat i had some real problems with what was being asked for in it. if
Xyou forget the details, please go back and read the original mail
Xagain. i feel that i am being singled out to make promises that noone
Xelse is required to make. then i hear that that is because i've been
Xbad. then i am told that no, i won't be told when i was bad. then i
Xhear from some other people that they have some theories or facts
Xabout what actually happened, and that it is really embarrasing to
Xcore. but i don't know what is true. all i know is that i was hurt,
Xand that when i look back at the facts of it, i feel that taking
Xport-sparc away was VERY unfair. but above all, it is clear that i
Xreally only want to be in this for technical reasons, but that clearly
Xisn't enough -- i must make promises. then 20 or so people speak up,
Xand even though i say nothing, a mailing list is moderated so that
Xthings can't get through -- even though (two of?) the people using the
Xcode say that they feel the discussion is very relevant, since it is
Xdisgussing ways to get technical improvements back into the stream.
X
Xso every time i talk to core they want me to say that something -- and
Xi won't be told what specifically it was or be able to defend myself
X-- requires me to admit that i was wrong by making promises that it --
Xwhatever it was -- won't happen again. which is an immediate reminder
Xthat i was treated unfairly.
X
Xi'm sorry, but this smells like a kangaroo court.
X
Xyes, perhaps you consider this misrepresentation of the facts, but it
Xis what i (and others feel the same as me) feel and think. of course i
Xshowed that mail that chris sent to a few people who i talk to often,
Xbecause they are my friends, and i work closely with them. and they
Xtoo were confused as to what to say in reply.
X
Xremember that i have made absolutely no public statements about these
Xhappenings at all, and i think you guys should be happy about that.  i
Xcan't help if you take the last sentence as a threat, some of you
Xmight, how would i know -- because i don't know the facts of what i
Xdid to cause this, do I? nothing beyond "you've been bad, you'd been
Xbad before and warned". with a silent implication that none of you bad
Xbeen bad enough cause this to happen to you. i've been told nothing
Xexcept that something -- which i can be told nothing about -- caused
Xme to be kicked out, even though previous instances led to it too, of
Xwhich none have been pointed out. and a perusal of the public mailing
Xlists show that i didn't flame very much.
X
Xso i can only assume it was private mail (or another more local
Xpossibility, which if it was the case, ties in with some other really
Xdigusting and vile politics someone at work did against me), and so
Xprivate mail was used against me. great. i was tempted a few months
Xago to go back into my mail archives and pull out a few other pieces
Xof private mail that i've seen cc'd.
X
Xso, i, left with absolutely no facts about what the thing i did that
Xwas wrong, am supposed to make promises that noone else makes. i'm
Xsupposed to place limits on myself -- that apparently everyone else is
Xassumed to have to stick to, yet with me it cannot be assumed and i
Xhave to make promises. it sounds very reasonable except the cause for
Xme being kicked out remains a secret. to make promises to people who i
Xfeel have been less than straightforward with me. but i've got a
Xlittle header on my mail too now that says my mail can't be
Xforwarded. so you'll never see any of the private mail that i send to
Xanyone, or be able to redistribute it to use it against me, right?
Xbecause if they did, that would be them being unprofessional?
X
Xyes, i'm angry.
X
Xdo you think that i'm supposed to take all this lying down? do you
Xthink it is trivial to approach people who have taken what i love to
Xdo, in the same week while a fellow employee is lying about my actions
Xto my boss and to my friends, and i have tendonitis so badly that i
Xcannot type more than 30 minutes a day or ride my bike; and then even
Xthe way it is announced to the world is quiet, elusive, toned down --
Xthat it is posted to a newsgroup that very few people read, that
Xport-sparc is not even told of me being kicked out, only of me being
Xreplaced?
X
Xwhen i talk of what i love -- am i talking about core? no. i'm talking
Xabout the sparc port. development and enhancement. technical
Xthings. which should not be shrouded by politics if possible. chris
Xmentions often that he finds the politics to be overbearing, yet after
X2 months of talking to you we've progressed very little, if not
Xnowhere. the politics keep dragging on,
X
Xand perhaps this is all just a misrepresentation of the facts by me
Xagain, but it seems as if the politics are severely overshadowing the
Xtechology. and perhaps that's because you feel you need some
Xprotection of some sort, a little letter that allows you later on to
Xsay "you promised, and you didn't do it, and we got you to agree that
Xyour private mail did matter, and the guy did mailbomb you, and you
Xwere angry because he mailbombed you for the wrong reason, but that
Xdoesn't matter because he was a netbsd person, and you should have
Xcome to us so we could tell him to stop mailbombing you because he
Xmisunderstood something you said, so you are out, again."
X
Xam i making all this up? perhaps i am, but you don't have to dream
Xmy dreams.
X
X
X> To me, communication is the honest and open sharing of ideas and
X> feelings about a particular matter.
X
Xthat is what the above is. if it has anger in it, then that is what is
Xin it. it is an honest and open sharing of ideas and feelings. those
Xfeelings include anger, hurt, apprehension, loss. but i'm trying to
Xfind a way to forget about that past stuff, and you're not making it
Xeasy.
X
Xi felt ripped off because i could not make a proper technical
Xcontribution anymore (not having CVS access makes things a lot harder
Xthan expected), i felt ripped off because port-sparc and core were
Xmixed into one bag and both were taken away. i actually felt glad that
Xcore wasn't a worry anymore.
X
Xit took a long time before i even communicated with any of the people
Xanymore -- i was angry because my friends were given spotty
Xinformation (imagine getting mail from an avid follower, 2 months
Xlater, asking what is going on -- he being totally clueless about what
Xhad transpired, and finding nothing in his mailing list archives,
Xthough subscribed to 10 of them -- this happened with a number of
Xpeople -- noone reads that mailing list the message went out to).
X
Xand i kept programming (well, once my hands were slightly better).
Xbecause that is the important part.
X
X> That should pretty much explain where i'm coming from, in this entire
X> conversation.  "Honest and open sharing of ideas," in a
X> non-confrontational environment, is what i want.
X
Xthat's what i've done above. i'm trying not to be confrontational -- i
Xam being honest; i am even being honest about my anger. if you think
Xit is confrontational, please go back and read it again as if it
Xwasn't, because quite often i fail to express properly in words.
X
X> However, i _do_ see things like you (apparently) getting angry when
X> you're corrected about a misrepresentation you've made as being a
X> problem.
X
Xthat piece of mail made me angry because once again it said i was bad
Xand then avoided telling me when. these rough outlines of me being bad
Xare not going to be enough if you expect things to work out. i suspect
Xthat core is going to have to either drop that entire "being bad"
Xissue completely, or bring it all to the forefront for a small time --
Xtell me all if it and let me defend myself if i can. it's the fair and
Xmodern way of doing things.
X
Xyou may now tell me that it isn't possible to fill me in on the
Xdetails because it is private, but i don't see how i can accept that.
Xyou cannot expect me to accept guilt for something i know nothing
Xabout, especially when it so easy for someone to be setup via email.
Xthere are many things that were going on in the previous 2 months
Xbefore your actions that you do not know about.
X
X> It is my firm opinion that, in "professional" environments, you
X> should behave as if every piece of mail you write _is_ a public
X> message.  To me, that means that if you're interacting with people
X> working on NetBSD, or even interested in working on NetBSD, that it
X> should be "professional," and that even _if_ it is sent from you
X> privately, that it should be polite, reasonable, etc.  (Obviously,
X> people should treat you in the same way.  However, just because they
X> don't doesn't give you license to be "non-professional.")
X> 
X> I want _EVERYONE_ working on NetBSD to behave in a professional
X> manner, in public _AND_ in private.  Obviously, the latter can't be
X> enforced, but if people complain about "unprofessional" behaviour,
X> then it doesn't rightly matter _where_ it occurred.
X
Xi want to do technical things, and i want these kinds of discussions
Xover with. you are talking about being polite, yet even this piece of
Xmail (i know you didn't intend it as such, but none the less..), by
Xbringing up bad memories for me -- about things which core refuses to
Xbe straight with me about -- it is not _perceived_ as polite by me.
X
Xso, as i've said before to a number of people, i think we have three
Xchoices before us
X
X(1) you be straight with me about how i was "bad"
X(2) you stop trying to treat me as a special case who must assume
X    guilt by fiat
X(3) we just get to technical things
X
Xas long as you struggle to make case (2) happen, you will find that
Xcase (1) is a concern for me. or, we can just get on with (3).
X
Xremember, i've _attempted_ to be honest about my feelings and thoughts.
Xi suspect i've failed.
END-of-59
echo x - 60
sed 's/^X//' >60 << 'END-of-60'
XTo: Paul Kranenburg 
XSubject: Re: back 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 May 1995 10:52:33 +0200."
X             <9505220852.AA27413@cs.few.eur.nl> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Mon, 22 May 1995 02:56:13 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xi just talked with chris on the phone. we got through a lot of it.
Xfinally i got some straight poop on what the story had been. he said
Xsomething like that he was glad i showed that i was still angry -- i
Xwas being real i guess.
X
Xi don't think you've failed me; i think the process has had something
Xwrong with it. i feel better now that i've told chris some things that
Xhe did not know before, i also feel better now that he's told me some
Xthings that i did not know.
X
Xperhaps this will soon be over.
X
Xby the way, it looks like i've solved the bootpath problem completely.
Xwell, except for one very minor little thing: it does not currently
Xhonour lun's on sun4 machines for the bootpath. pretty darn minor, eh?
Xoh -- and it makes dk_establish() safe for all drivers to use.
END-of-60
echo x - 61
sed 's/^X//' >61 << 'END-of-61'
XForwarded: Wed, 24 May 1995 12:30:59 -0600
XForwarded: "chuck "
XTo: cgd@netbsd.org
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XSubject: hi
XDate: Mon, 22 May 1995 03:33:33 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xi managed to find this one piece of mail. it is the only one i found
X-- but i think i recall a second instance where i was told the same
Xthing -- i think it was earlier, but do not remember if it was mail or
Xvoice.
X
Xi'll just leave the relevant pieces, and am sure you can find it by
Xthe Message-Id. let me know if you want the full message.
X
X----------------------------------------------------------------------
XDate: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 20:15:47 -0400
XMessage-Id: <199504210015.UAA11247@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
XFrom: "Charles M. Hannum" 
XTo: miguel@roxanne.nuclecu.unam.mx
XCc: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XSubject: Re: 4/X00 support from theo (Was: Sparc 20 ?)
X
X[...]
X3) It was not a single user, or a single incident, and it occured over
Xa long period of time.
X
X[...]
X
XI think it's reasonably clear that only people in the `core' group
Xknow the details of this, and we consider much of the information to
Xbe confidential.
X
X----------------------------------------------------------------------
X
Xi read the first chunk as "it wasn't jonathan" (note: miguel implied
Xin the previous mail that it was the jonathan situation), and i read
Xthe second chunk as "only core knows about it -- theo doesn't"
X(whether that means "all" or "some" of the details is unclear, but
Xcoupled together the two statements read as "it wasn't a single
Xincident, therefore it couldn't be jonathan, therefore theo has no
Xidea what caused it, and won't be told."
X
Xthe port-pmax mailing where i defended myself, that didn't go out --
Xit was in response to jonathan flaming me. charles deleted it, and i
Xdon't think you ever saw it. sorry, i don't have a copy of that. (i
Xdidn't have Fcc: working yet..)
X
Xi suspect you have more pieces of the jonathan mail saga archived in
Xyour mail folders than i do -- well, easier to access. it looks like i
Xhad not yet switched over fully to mh-e at that time -- it scares me
Xwhen i think that that mail is archived deep in my old 15M archive
Xdirectory..
X
Xpaul just phoned me. he said that he just wants to get back to
Xtechnical things, and skip over this. i said i'd talked to you, and
Xexplained the bit about stuck in corners and nobody wanting to lose
Xface. he replied that we should just move past that.
X
Xapparently his 4/400 code as in the tree works a lot better than i had
Xthought; he is just missing iocache support, so his hangup is that he
Xcannot boot off diskless root because after the 3nd packet the machine
Xcomplains about dma botches of some kind. that is very exciting,
Xbecause it means that i'm free to do sun4m pmap merging at any time.
X
Xi was up at 9am, climbed a mountain, hiked 6 km through 4ft deep slush
X(the image you are supposed to get is of 12 million overturned slurpee
Xcups, and of geting your groin wet in slurpee), nearly died eating
Xbeef vindaloo, wrote some code, talked on the phone, wrote mail, and
Xnow it's almost 4am and this is absolutely beyond ridiculous.
END-of-61
echo x - 62
sed 's/^X//' >62 << 'END-of-62'
XReturn-Path: jconklin@netcom.com
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from netcom20.netcom.com by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA11841; Mon, 22 May 95 14:28:28 MDT
XReceived: by netcom20.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom)
X	id NAA12410; Mon, 22 May 1995 13:25:32 -0700
XFrom: jconklin@netcom.com (J.T. Conklin)
XMessage-Id: <199505222025.NAA12410@netcom20.netcom.com>
XSubject: CVS Access
XTo: core@netbsd.org
XDate: Mon, 22 May 1995 13:25:30 -0700 (PDT)
XCc: deraadt@theos.com
XX-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
XMime-Version: 1.0
XContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
XContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
XContent-Length: 787       
X
XOuch.  I feel the heat rising...  It shouldn't have to be this way.
X
XThe facts as I understand them are that the two question Chris asked
Xon behalf of core were:
X
X	(1) can core & theo communicate well with each other.
X	(2) can theo promise not to stomp on anybody's toes.
X
XAs far as I know, these questions have not been answered.  I get the
Ximpression that Theo feels that we are holding him to a higher
Xstandard because of past behavior.
X
XI don't think we are.  If anything, we are making the requirements
Xthat have been implicit when direct CVS access was granted in the past
Xexplicit.  I think anyone who has direct CVS access has to be held to
Xthese same standards.
X
XConversely, anyone who can not, or is unwilling, to agree to them should
Xnot be granted direct CVS access.
X
X	--jtc
END-of-62
echo x - 63
sed 's/^X//' >63 << 'END-of-63'
XReturn-Path: pk@cs.few.eur.nl
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from cs.few.eur.nl (kaa.cs.few.eur.nl) by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA15905; Tue, 23 May 95 03:52:49 MDT
XReceived: by cs.few.eur.nl (5.67/EUR)
X	id AA04678; Tue, 23 May 95 11:52:30 +0200
XDate: Tue, 23 May 95 11:52:30 +0200
XFrom: Paul Kranenburg 
XMessage-Id: <9505230952.AA04678@cs.few.eur.nl>
XTo: core@NetBSD.ORG
XSubject: Re: CVS Access
XCc: deraadt@theos.com
X
X>  I think anyone who has direct CVS access has to be held to
X> these same standards.
X> 
X> Conversely, anyone who can not, or is unwilling, to agree to them should
X> not be granted direct CVS access.
X
X
XYes, well put. I actually meant to say the same thing im my prev message,
Xbut worded it more clumsily.
X
X-pk
X
END-of-63
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sed 's/^X//' >64 << 'END-of-64'
XReplied: Thu, 25 May 1995 16:54:16 -0600
XReplied: "miguel@roxanne.nuclecu.unam.mx, mouse@Collatz.McRCIM.McGill.EDU,
XReplied: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG "
XReplied: Thu, 25 May 1995 16:38:42 -0600
XReplied: "chuck "
XReturn-Path: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from pain.lcs.mit.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA07946; Thu, 25 May 95 15:47:26 MDT
XReceived: (from daemon@localhost) by pain.lcs.mit.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA10431; Thu, 25 May 1995 15:54:38 -0400
XReceived: from LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU by pain.lcs.mit.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA10427 for ; Thu, 25 May 1995 15:54:35 -0400
XMessage-Id: <199505251954.PAA10427@pain.lcs.mit.edu>
XReceived: from localhost by LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU id aa20535;
X          25 May 95 15:53 EDT
XTo: miguel@roxanne.nuclecu.unam.mx
XCc: mouse@Collatz.McRCIM.McGill.EDU, port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XReply-To: cgd@NetBSD.ORG
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: theo's changes 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 May 1995 11:50:05 MDT."
X             <9505251750.AA05135@roxanne.nuclecu.unam.mx> 
XDate: Thu, 25 May 1995 15:53:31 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
XSender: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XPrecedence: list
XX-Loop: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
X
XI am going to send exactly one last message in public about this.
XPeriod.  I've set replies to cgd@netbsd.org.  I would ask that you
Xrefrain from public discussion, and let port-sparc continue to be a
Xtechnically-oriented mailing list.  If you feel that you must comment
Xpublically, have a ball; i'm the port-sparc owner and sometime
Xmoderator, and i'm going to let you folks flame all you want about
Xthis issue, until you're all sick of it and until you realize that you
Xhave more important and productive things to do.
X
X
X
XMiguel de Icaza said:
X
X> Well, you won't believe why Theo was asked to leave the core group,
X> but it was something violent and may forward you a bunch of mail I got
X> from Theo about this.  I lost two days talking with Chris about this,
X> and they won't admit that it was a mistake from their part and not
X> from Theo.  They won't talk about it and won't tell you the thruth, I
X> got their original mail to Theo, and believe me, it's not nice at all.
X
XThe original message included in the headers the following:
X
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1994, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
X
XThat means that, if you received a copy which wasn't authorized by me
X(and none were, except to the original recipients), it was forwarded
Xto you illegally.  If you forward it to others without my permission,
Xyou are breaking the laws of your country, if you happen to be living
Xin a country that is a signatory to the Berne Convention.  (That
Xincludes Mexico and Canada, and a whole bunch of others.)
X
XAs for your comments about why it happened, see below.  I've said the
Xsame thing several times before.
X
X
X> Fortunatelly, after spending those days talking with Chris, they will
X> give access to the cvs tree to Theo.   
X
XWe have stated several times that we will give Theo access to the CVS
Xtree if and only if:
X
X	(1) He agrees to not abuse or harass users, developers, or
X		potential users or developers of NetBSD, or
X		behave in an otherwise unprofessional manner when
X		dealing with that same set of people,
X
X	(2) He makes some effort to communicate with 'core', and
X
X	(3) we believe we can trust theo to work in the source tree
X		non-disruptively.
X
XAll of those are necessary, for somewhat obvious reasons:
X
XThe former is necessary, because someone -- ANYONE -- who has NetBSD
XCVS tree access is implicitly someone associated with NetBSD, and
Xtherefore reflects on the project.  As noted, Theo _has_ a history of
Xbeing overbearing, abusive, and downright obscene in communications
Xwith the class of people mentioned above, and _many_ complaints about
Xhim have been received by various 'core' members over time.
X
XThe second is important, because if Theo is to have CVS tree access,
Xthen he _must_ have a good working relationship with 'core'.  That is
Xobvious.
X
XThe latter is vital; if he can't be trusted to work non-disruptively
Xin the source tree, well, then him having source tree access is a
Xvery, very big lose.  I'm not concerned about this; I believe that
XTheo is honest, and good for his word once he commits to it.
X(However, this belief is tempered by the fact that he's apparently
Xforwarded e-mail that i sent illegally, without my consnet.)
X
X
X> Core asked Theo to leave the group based on "receiving a considerable
X> amount of complaints about the fact that you seem to harass and abuse
X> both users and developers of NetBSD".  The facts were others, I could
X> collect some of the mail I got.
X
XIndeed, not long after the project started, complaints started rolling
Xin about Theo.  The final straw was that he told a developer (who was
Xworking on the pmax port) to stop "shoving [his; the developer's] cock
Xdown [his; theo's] throat."
X
XTheo will be glad to tell you, i'm sure, that this was in response to
Xanother series of arguments, a more personal series of arguments, or
Xmany such things.  However, the point is, THIS IS NOT THE LANGUAGE
XTHAT A "PROFESSIONAL" USES, and it is _completely_ unacceptable for a
Xrepresentative (in 'core' or not) to treat a user or developer like
Xthis.  It is unprofessional, asinine, and OBSCENE.  It doesn't matter
Xthat or if the comment was provoked; it should NEVER, EVER have
Xbeen made.
X
XIt was decided (by a unanimous vote of the members of 'core',
Xexcluding theo) that we needed to at least remove Theo from 'core,'
Xand thus publically indicate that he was no longer an 'official'
Xrepresentative of the NetBSD project.  There was a slight problem: we
Xexpected him to be _quite_ angry with us for our action.  We therefore 
Xthought it necessary to take what i would term "hostile employee"
Xprecautions -- we turned off his account on the various NetBSD
Xdevelopment machines on which he had accounts, changed the root
Xpasswords, etc.
X
XSince his account was disabled, Theo has:
X
X	(1) refused to acknowledge that his actions and statements
X		were unprofessional, damaging to the project, and
X		'wrong,' and has gone to great lengths to rationalize
X		them, and has
X
X	(2) refused to indicate in any way that he would in the future
X		attempt to behave in a professional manner -- in both
X		public and private communications wherever the project
X		might be effected.
X
XI don't particularly care about the former.  However, the latter is
X_vitally_ important, because if he's going to be in any way a
Xrepresentative of the project (even as much as being a person with CVS
Xtree access or being a port maintainer implies) then we _must_ be sure
Xthat the mistakes of the past are not to be repeated.
X
X
X> Most of them are copyrighted, and
X> Chris, for instance, insisted on not making them public: he may have
X> some reason.  Fact: he was not telling the truth.
X
X"BZZZ!  TRY AGAIN!"
X
XI have:
X
X	(1) been honest in my representation of the situation to
X		people, when i've discussed it at all.  (There are
X		good reasons not to discuss it, such as privacy
X		concerns and the fact that entire situation is
X		amazingly stupid.)
X
X	(2) gone far out of my way, in many instances, to try to
X		explain what was going on, the reasoning behind
X		it, and the hopeful outcomes.  Most of that was in
X		private mail.
X
X	(3) gone far out of my way, at several times, to understand
X		the position from which you and others (including
X		Theo; i've spent over two hours on the phone with
X		him discussing this matter) are speaking.
X
X
XAll that Theo has to do to satisfy _me_ (I can't speak for the other
Xmembers of 'core' -- at least two of the other three of them have to
Xbe satisfied as well) that he should be given access to the source
Xtree is give his word, in good faith that:
X
X	(1) he will try his best to work constructively with the
X		members of 'core' and the various port maintainers
X		and others who have CVS tree access, and
X
X	(2) he will display a "professional" attitude, and communicate,
X		in both public and private, in a no less than a
X		"professional" manner with current and potential users
X		and developers of NetBSD.
X
XBoth of those are expected implicitly of the people who are given source
Xtree access.  Because of past events, I feel that it's necessary for
XTheo to explicitly agree to them before he can be given source tree
Xaccess or accounts on NetBSD developement machines again.
X
XRead those carefully: there's _NOTHING_ in any way objectionable in
Xeither of them, assuming that one (a) wants to actively work to
Ximprove the NetBSD project, and (b) believes that "professional" conduct
Xis appropriate in business-like situations.
X
X
XAnyway, that's it from me on this topic.  "Flame away!"  8-)
X
XIf anybody wants to discuss this with me or 'core' in private mail,
Xfeel free to send it.  However, at this point, i think you're going to
Xhave a relatively hard time convincing me that i'm asking for too
X_much_.
X
X
X
Xlater,
X
Xchris
END-of-64
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XTo: Jason Thorpe 
XSubject: Re: theo's changes 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 25 May 1995 18:05:59 PDT."
X             <199505260105.SAA14791@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Thu, 25 May 1995 19:21:05 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> Ok...you're an ISP now, right?  If so, I imagine you're prepared to take 
X> phone calls and or emails about abusive users, yes?
X
Xno, i'm not an ISP. i just have my own machine here. and if someone
Xcalled me about one of my friends on my machine being abusive i'd just
Xtell the person at the other end that it's none of my business. noone
Xon my machine pays -- they are all friends, and as such their private
Xlittle lives are none of their business unless they cause me
Xproblems. if someone phones me to bitch about one my friends, i hold
Xthe person who called me responsible for being a pain in the ass.
X
X> I mean, Theo and I have had our differences in the past; I seem to 
X> remember a good one about diffs to the sb driver I sent in one day.  But 
X> it's obvious to me that it's possible to get past that kinda stuff, 
X> proven by the fact that we were able to work constructively later on.  
X> TBH, I don't see why that can't just happen now.
X
Xyes. i remember i was right :-) :-) hahaha!
X
X> Perhaps the `right' solution is a compromise:
X> (These are greatly paraphrased...)
X> 
X> 	a)  Theo will communicate effectively with `core'.
X> 	b)  Theo will work well with other current and potential
X> 	    NetBSD users and developers, whether or not they have
X> 	    CVS access.
X> 	c)  Theo will conduct himself in a professional manner when
X> 	    representing the project.
X> 	d)  `Professionalism' will not be a consideration when 
X> 	    communication is clearly personal.
X> 
X> The first three are basically Chris's.  The last one is basically 
X> Theo's.  I don't really see _any_ of this as unreasonable.  These are 
X> basically the rules that everyone where I work follows...they're the 
X> unspoken kind that everyone seems to understand...
X
Xthat last one is exactly what i have been saying for a while, and
Xthey've not accepted it. also, it clearly is what got me kicked out
Xbefore -- so i suspect that is why they are being sticklers about
Xit. it says "we made a mistake".
X
X> Ok -- it's an idea.  Do with it what you will.  But, for the sake of 
X> _everyone's_ sanity (even those not directly involved), _please_ just 
X> come to some sort of agreement so we can all just get on with our lives.
X
Xthat's what i've been trying for. i've got mail to back that up if
Xit ever came to that. i've been insulted by their mail multiple times
Xsince trying to get back in. it's ridiculous. professionalism when
Xcharles yells at me in mail?
X
X> I'm going to bike the 20-ish miles home now...I'm sure there'll be some 
X> sort of reply by the time I get there... :-)
X
Xmy bike is fucked, i'm about to spend $500 on it to replace broken
Xcomponents. the entire power train is toast after 7 years of reusing
Xparts like rings, cranks, etc.
X
Xthis mail is just to you... i have nothing more to say to core.
END-of-65
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XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA15253; Fri, 26 May 95 16:36:17 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9505262236.AA15253@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU id aa21644;
X          26 May 95 18:35 EDT
XTo: Keith Moore 
XCc: Theo de Raadt , cgd@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: may I respectfully suggest... 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 May 1995 23:24:26 EDT."
X             <199505260324.XAA20083@wilma.cs.utk.edu> 
XDate: Fri, 26 May 1995 18:35:30 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
X> ...that all parties agree to dismiss what has happened in the past.
X
XI've already stated that i'm willing to do that _EXCEPT_ inasumch as
Xit is an indicator of something happening in the future.
X
XTo ignore the past when contemplating the future is foolhardy, at best.
X
X> All people sometimes say imprudent things, let their temper get the
X> better of them, overreact, or are simply misunderstood.  There's
X> really no way to decide whether someone was right or wrong. Anyone
X> trying to judge the situation will interpret it according to his/her
X> own biases anyway.
X> 
X> Furthermore, such damage as has been done cannot be undone.  Some
X> people will feel insulted or slighted or mistreated about what
X> happened in the past, no matter what Theo and/or the NetBSD core team
X> choose to do about this in the future.  But if people agree to stop
X> arguing about what happened, the events now being discussed will
X> eventually become irrelevant.  
X
XYup.
X
X> (I realize that there *has* been an effort to avoid public discussion
X> of this; but recently it's starting to look like a trial.  If this
X> issue can be resolved so that Theo can help out, I'll be glad that it
X> came up.  But I don't think it helps anyone to have a public trial.)
X
XIf you'll note, all along, until my recent message, 'core' has done
Xwhat it could to keep the details out of the public eye -- FOR JUST
XTHAT PURPOSE.  It's in nobody's interests to have theo's actions
Xjudged publically, because as noted, the complete story can probably
Xnever be known.
X
XOn the other hand, we feel as if people have been trying to hold a
X"trial of public opinion" with us as the defendants, and that is
Xsimply NOT acceptable.  I am pleased to report that the mail that i've
Xreceived in response to my posting has been largely positive.
X
X> + to privately attempt to reach a clear and mutually agreeable
X>   understanding about what limitations on future public conduct,
X>   and what level of involvement on Theo's part would be consistent 
X>   with whatever restrictions on conduct he is willing to agree to.
X
XI have spent a lot of time trying to do that, and a lot of money in
Xphone bills.  My message to port-sparc was and is my final position on
Xthe issue.
X
XNote that (despite what theo claimed in public) it _didn't_ and
Xdoesn't try to regulate what he does in 'personal' relationships, only
Xin ones that impact the NetBSD project.  in particular, i said:
X
X>	(1) He agrees to not abuse or harass users, developers, or
X>		potential users or developers of NetBSD, or
X>		behave in an otherwise unprofessional manner when
X>		dealing with that same set of people,
X
X'potential' has the 'reasonable' definition: while John Q. Homelessguy
Xis a _potential_ user of NetBSD, he isn't one given a 'reasonable'
Xdefinition of 'potential.'  Similarly, J. Q. Random out on the net,
Xunless he or she has expressed interest in some form about NetBSD,
Xisn't a 'potential' user.  However, i believe charles's "Employee"
Xanalogy, that he posted to port-sparc, is a valid one.
X
XWe expect all NetBSD developers to behave in a professional manner
Xwhen dealing with people who work on or are interested in working on
XNetBSD.  Among other things, "professional" behaviour means (to me)
Xnot stooping to other person's level, if they're acting like a
Xthree-year-old.
X
XIf Theo cannot commit to behaving professionally when dealing with
Xpeople that are or are potentially interested in NetBSD, then he can't
Xhave access to the source tree.
X
X
X
Xchris
END-of-66
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XReplied: Mon, 29 May 1995 00:07:12 -0600
XReplied: "Paul Kranenburg  "
XReturn-Path: pk@cs.few.eur.nl
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from cs.few.eur.nl (kaa.cs.few.eur.nl) by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA23199; Sun, 28 May 95 05:31:42 MDT
XReceived: by cs.few.eur.nl (5.67/EUR)
X	id AA24477; Sun, 28 May 95 13:12:27 +0200
XFrom: Paul Kranenburg 
XMessage-Id: <9505281112.AA24477@cs.few.eur.nl>
XSubject: Re: theo's changes
XTo: deraadt@theos.com (Theo de Raadt)
XDate: Sun, 28 May 1995 13:12:27 +0200 (MET DST)
XCc: core@netbsd.org
XIn-Reply-To: <9505252254.AA08168@theos.com> from "Theo de Raadt" at May 25, 95 04:54:16 pm
XX-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL13]
XMime-Version: 1.0
XContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
XContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
XContent-Length: 953       
X
X> i have agreed to all these points -- many times now
XWell, that should clear most obstacles, don't you think?
X
X> -- except one piece:
X> i do not accept that my private mail IN A PERSONAL SETTING can be used
X> against me.
X
XI agree to this. There's just a tiny problem of not having full control
Xon the "personal" attributes in circumstances where such a personal feud
Xstarted out as a discussion on NetBSD topics, especially when initiated
Xon a public forum. On such occasions one could _say_ that it has now
Xbecome a personal matter, but this is likely not going to be perceived
Xthat way out-siders. This is something a professional (to paraphrase Chris)
Xshould care about even if those out-siders don't have a clue.
X
XI do not think it is worth the trouble to try and formulate anything more
Xprecise in this matter. Common sense and a pragmatic attitude should do
Xthe trick. There's nothing unnatural in expecting this from one another,
Xis there?
X
X-pk
END-of-67
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XTo: Paul Kranenburg 
XSubject: Re: theo's changes 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 28 May 1995 13:12:27 +0200."
X             <9505281112.AA24477@cs.few.eur.nl> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Mon, 29 May 1995 00:07:12 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> > i have agreed to all these points -- many times now
X> Well, that should clear most obstacles, don't you think?
X
Xi should have thought so.
X
X> > -- except one piece:
X> > i do not accept that my private mail IN A PERSONAL SETTING can be used
X> > against me.
X> 
X> I agree to this. There's just a tiny problem of not having full control
X> on the "personal" attributes in circumstances where such a personal feud
X> started out as a discussion on NetBSD topics, especially when initiated
X> on a public forum. On such occasions one could _say_ that it has now
X> become a personal matter, but this is likely not going to be perceived
X> that way out-siders. This is something a professional (to paraphrase Chris)
X> should care about even if those out-siders don't have a clue.
X
Xbut if it was personal -- and it certainly was private mail -- then there
Xis something along the following lines:
X
X	i sent mail in my defence to port-pmax, and charles deleted it.
X	did you ever see this mail where i defended myself and included
X	excerpts of what jonathan said to me in mail, which clearly took
X	it to a personal level? did you ever see anything which suggested
X	it was not a personal situation? if not, does that mean you perhaps
X	judged me without knowing all the facts? you, as a member of core
X	-- in a professional role. and then.. perhaps other members of core
X	did so too, or well.. you figure out the rest of the details. i
X	was left out of the process completely.
X
Xbtw: the mail between jonathan and I did NOT happen on a public forum
X-- they were initiated because I saw something in the source regarding
Xcaching on mips cpu's -- when i was reading the IDT mips book -- and i
Xsent him mail.
X
Xi don't think you had sufficient information when you voted.
X
X> I do not think it is worth the trouble to try and formulate anything more
X> precise in this matter. Common sense and a pragmatic attitude should do
X> the trick. There's nothing unnatural in expecting this from one another,
X> is there?
X
Xi do think it is worthwhile to formulate such issues; also once they
Xare formulated, i think that people working on netbsd should be told
Xpublically what rights they can expect to still retain.
X
Xi'll just keep climbing mountains and working on other ports until the
Xissue is resolved. i'm very tired of talking about it, paul, and it
XREALLY ruins my days and nights. i was shaking a few days ago when i
Xread my mail. i just about deleted the sources that day. anyways, i'll
Xlikely drive down to the desert for a couple of days to camp and
Xchase & catalog some desert tortoises (helping some US army
Xenvironmental assessment people who are good friends with my roomate)
X
END-of-68
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XReplied: Mon, 29 May 1995 09:56:56 -0600
XReplied: "Chris G Demetriou  "
XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA28642; Mon, 29 May 95 06:57:01 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9505291257.AA28642@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU id aa25468;
X          29 May 95 8:56 EDT
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XCc: cgd@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: theo's changes 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 May 1995 16:54:16 MDT."
X             <9505252254.AA08168@theos.com> 
XDate: Mon, 29 May 1995 08:56:27 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
XYou said:
X> it's been 3 months
X> that i've been talking to you, and it feels like no headway has been
X> made.
X
XI suggest you look at your calendar and/or copies of saved mail.
XThe first time i talked to you about you getting back access to the
XNetBSD was on 4/20, a month and a week ago.  Indeed, the first thing i
Xhave saved in my mail (here) about it was dated 4/20, as well.
X
X(I can only assume that you were talking about me, when you said
X"you," because you _were_ responding to my e-mail...)
X
X
X
X
Xcgd
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XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: theo's changes 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 29 May 1995 08:56:27 EDT."
X             <9505291257.AA28642@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Mon, 29 May 1995 09:56:57 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> You said:
X> > it's been 3 months
X> > that i've been talking to you, and it feels like no headway has been
X> > made.
X> 
X> I suggest you look at your calendar and/or copies of saved mail.
X> The first time i talked to you about you getting back access to the
X> NetBSD was on 4/20, a month and a week ago.  Indeed, the first thing i
X> have saved in my mail (here) about it was dated 4/20, as well.
X> 
X> (I can only assume that you were talking about me, when you said
X> "you," because you _were_ responding to my e-mail...)
X
Xyou are a member of the netbsd core, and i was talking to another
Xmember of core (pk) 3 months ago, about all this. you means "core".
Xif this had been spanish it would have been more clear.
END-of-70
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XReplied: Tue, 30 May 1995 17:07:13 -0600
XReplied: "Chris G Demetriou  deraadt@theos.com, cgd@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU, core@netbsd.org"
XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA12928; Tue, 30 May 95 05:41:22 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9505301141.AA12928@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU id aa26482;
X          30 May 95 7:39 EDT
XTo: deraadt@theos.com
XCc: cgd@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU, core@netbsd.org
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Where to go from here?
XDate: Tue, 30 May 1995 07:39:49 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
XTheo:
X
XFor the last couple of days, we've been at what appears to be an impasse.
XIn a nutshell (as i see it):
X
X	You want to make sure that (at least some) of your mail is
X	considered "personal," and not to be interpreted in any way
X	with the NetBSD project.
X
X	We ("core") need to know that that communications that relate
X	to the NetBSD project -- even if made in private mail -- take
X	a "professional" tone, and reflect positively on the project.
X
X
XDo you have any suggestions that would satisfy your requirement and
Xours?  Various ideas have been tossed out by various people (e.g. only
Xsending NetBSD-related mail from a certain e-mail address, including
Xdisclaimers when you're not sending "NetBSD-related" mail, etc.), and
Xi'm wondering what _you_ think a workable solution would be.
X
X
Xchris
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XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
Xcc: deraadt@theos.com, cgd@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu, core@netbsd.org
XSubject: Re: Where to go from here? 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 30 May 1995 07:39:49 EDT."
X             <9505301141.AA12928@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Tue, 30 May 1995 17:07:13 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> For the last couple of days, we've been at what appears to be an impasse.
X> In a nutshell (as i see it):
X> 
X> 	You want to make sure that (at least some) of your mail is
X> 	considered "personal," and not to be interpreted in any way
X> 	with the NetBSD project.
X> 
X> 	We ("core") need to know that that communications that relate
X> 	to the NetBSD project -- even if made in private mail -- take
X> 	a "professional" tone, and reflect positively on the project.
X> 
X> 
X> Do you have any suggestions that would satisfy your requirement and
X> ours?  Various ideas have been tossed out by various people (e.g. only
X> sending NetBSD-related mail from a certain e-mail address, including
X> disclaimers when you're not sending "NetBSD-related" mail, etc.), and
X> i'm wondering what _you_ think a workable solution would be.
X
Xi am willing to accept any terms and methods that all other
Xnetbsd-involved persons accept and use with their own personal mails.
END-of-72
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XTo: pk@netbsd.org
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XSubject: 4/400
XDate: Wed, 31 May 1995 02:37:45 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xthe 4/400 deal fell through; larry phoned and said someone offered him
Xbig bucks -- he asked if i would be kind enough to let him sell to
Xthat person instead; i said yes (reluctantly) and he thanked me for
Xbeing "cool about it".
X
Xhow much further have you gotten?
END-of-73
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XTo: Paul Kranenburg 
XSubject: Re: 4/400 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 31 May 1995 10:54:12 +0200."
X             <9505310854.AA21736@cs.few.eur.nl> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Wed, 31 May 1995 03:31:18 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> I spent all of monday evening getting the bloody obio if_ie driver to work,
X> without success. The receiver is Ok, but I can get only transmit packets < 86
X> in length. Anything bigger results in a xmit interrupt with status
X> "DMA underrun".
X
Xit definately works; there is a 4/100 somewhere in the US with an obio
Xie card that has been running solidly for over 35 days now.
X
Xpossibly your 87th byte is in a new page?
X
X> I'm not using the IO cache. I don;t know whether the board is somehow
X> wired to require that (i'd be surprised if it was).
X
Xi think it is required. if you like, ask larry, who happens to know a
Xguy who worked a lot on the 4/400. i believe the guy's name is narrad,
Xbut i might be wrong.
END-of-74
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XTo: port-sparc@netbsd.org
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XSubject: ouch
XDate: Wed, 31 May 1995 17:13:51 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xsome of you are going to think this is cool; i think it's sick. i
Xdon't know why i did it. perhaps the heat got to me.
X
Xi just booted netbsd on my sparcstation from a floppy -- it's running
Xsingle user. it needed two floppies because the kernel was too large
X(i think i can change that.) the 1st floppy had a /boot and /netbsd;
Xthe 2nd had /sbin/init, /bin/sh, /dev/{console,tty,ttya}. but it came
Xup!
X
Xi had to boot "-as".. (and btw, i finally managed to reproduce a bug
Xsomeone else told me about before, where "-a" prints really strange
Xstuff.)
X
Xof course, there is no need for a GENERIC kernel on a floppy; it only
Xneeds a simple sun4c-only kernel.
END-of-75
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XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: ouch 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 31 May 1995 19:40:40 EDT."
X             <9505312341.AA23854@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Wed, 31 May 1995 17:43:23 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xbut unfortunately we can't boot multiuser with sunos binaries because
Xof the "sloppy posix session" hack that larry put into
Xsunos. something goes wrong somewhere between init and your first
Xshell; i forget how it blows up.
X
Xtime for me to see how small a tiny kernel can go. at least sparc kernels
Xcompile in under 3 hours.
END-of-76
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XTo: Paul Kranenburg 
XSubject: Re: ouch 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 01 Jun 1995 11:07:04 +0200."
X             <9506010907.AA27767@cs.few.eur.nl> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Thu, 01 Jun 1995 05:14:18 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> I definitely think it's cool :-)
X
Xthanks.
X
X> (I remember trying this with a simple root-on-sd0 kernel; not really fancy)
X> 
X> BTW. Does the floppy probe Ok after this? There was a bug in the probe
X> routine that would potentially hang the machine (continuous interrupts
X> from the flop) if the head happened to be at the inner tracks, causing a
X> recalibrate to take some time. I fixed this 2 weeks ago and my machine
X> seems to do fine. I know others have experienced such hangs too.
X
Xit works ok for me. i'm using the latest commited code. i've never
Xseen such a problem. i have on the other hand seen some really other
Xstupid things happen.
X
Xalso, i am astounded that it deals ok with the stupid mapping of
Xpartition id's on the floppy drive to densities. i don't respect that
Xdesign choice.
X
Xthe smallest i've managed to make a useful install kernel is around
X700K. that's pretty damn big.
END-of-77
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XTo: pk@netbsd.org
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XSubject: curious
XDate: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:52:31 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xwith my kernel:
X
Xfloppy probes first, then esp
X
Xif there is a floppy in the drive, then everything works.
X
Xif there isn't a floppy in the drive, then the machine locks up while
Xprobing for scsi devices. i can't even get a trace, that's how solidly
Xit locks up.
END-of-78
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XTo: cgd@netbsd.org
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XSubject: two weeks
XDate: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 23:55:41 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xit's been somewhat over two weeks since i sent my last piece of mail to
Xcore. i thought i was going to get a reply.
X
Xis there any way in which i can be treated the same as every other person
Xwho contributes?
END-of-79
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XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA01653; Wed, 21 Jun 95 14:20:09 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9506212020.AA01653@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu id aa01040;
X          21 Jun 95 16:19 EDT
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: two weeks 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 20 Jun 1995 23:55:41 MDT."
X             <9506210555.AA27748@theos.com> 
XDate: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 16:19:12 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
Xfor the last two weeks, that's the same response that just about
Xeverybody else has gotten.  no, i'm not kidding.  since the ball is
Xpretty much in my court on it (as core seems to be delegating to me),
Xyou've gotten to wait.
X
XI _told_ you that by not proposing any useful text, a couple of weeks
Xago, that that would slow things down considerably.  since then, i've
Xbeen out of town (~5 days), working on Alpha stuff, and fighting with
Xthe machines that i brought back.  I was planning to get to 'you'
Xsometime in the next couple of days.
X
X
Xcgd
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XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA01973; Wed, 21 Jun 95 15:44:55 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9506212144.AA01973@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu id aa01164;
X          21 Jun 95 17:43 EDT
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XCc: cgd@netbsd.org
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: two weeks 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 20 Jun 1995 23:55:41 MDT."
X             <9506210555.AA27748@theos.com> 
XDate: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 17:43:09 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
X> is there any way in which i can be treated the same as every other person
X> who contributes?
X
XBTW: what you've asked for is to be treated _significantly_
Xdifferently than the _vast_ majority of people who contribute.
X
XThe majority of people who contribute have no source tree access, and
Xsubmit software or diffs to people who do.  Generally, if they can't
Xdo that easily, or think that it's not appropriate to go in the tree
Xyet, they put their software -- the source for their software -- up
Xfor FTP someplace, and let people look at it and play with it, etc.
X
X
XI just thought i'd make that clear.  As i said before: i was planning
Xto address your mail in the next couple of days.  That doesn't mean
Xreplying to it, that means getting something started (i.e. writing a
Xsmall piece of prose, circulating it in 'core', circulating it among
Xthe port maintainers, etc.) so that we will eventually be able to reply
Xto it.
X
X
Xcgd
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XReturn-Path: owner-current-users@NetBSD.ORG
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from pain.lcs.mit.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA10408; Thu, 22 Jun 95 19:14:00 MDT
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XMessage-Id: <199506220349.XAA01640@pain.lcs.mit.edu>
XReceived: from localhost by lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu id aa01539;
X          21 Jun 95 23:19 EDT
XTo: James Jegers 
XCc: current-users@NetBSD.ORG
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: Future of NetBSD?? 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:26:08 CDT."
X             <199506220226.VAA10847@miller.cs.uwm.edu> 
XDate: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 23:19:43 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
XSender: owner-current-users@NetBSD.ORG
XPrecedence: list
XX-Loop: current-users@NetBSD.ORG
X
XThis is my take on this:
X
X
X>      I know NetBSD's philosophy is to only give out the best written, 
X>      best operating things in it's system.  I think we need to change
X>      that philosophy.
X
XI strongly disagree with this.  One of the biggest reasons why 
X
XQuantity != Quality, and, for certain purposes, Quality is definitely
Xbetter in the long term.
X
X
X>      I'm not saying anyone has done anythng wrong, I just think that the
X>      CORE teams job should be to incorporate things others have written, and
X>      not spend so much time writting new things.  Fix bugs, incorporate
X>      things people have written, and then work on things they think
X>      should be fixed/redesigned.
X
XThe 'core' group does what a 'system architect' would do.  That
Xincludes:
X	(1) designing things,
X	(2) setting directions of the code base,
X	(3) possibly implementing things.
X
XThere are a _lot_ of people with access to the source tree who can't
Xor don't want to do (1) or (2), but want to fix bugs, maintain certain
Xprograms, etc.  In general, they've been given source tree access
Xbecause:
X	(1) they've asked for it, and
X	(2) they've earned it (by maintaining packages independently,
X		providing lots of bug fixes, etc.), and
X	(3) they've demonstrated that they 'do things right.'
X
XYou'll notice that there're relatively few cases of "person did X,
Xit was then backed out by person Y because it was broken" (and most
Xof the instances of that you see are because it was only half done).
X
X
XPeople are welcome to integrate as much software as they like into the
Xsystem, and then present it to 'core' or the responsible party for the
Xchunks of code that they're changing, to have it put in the master
Xsource tree.  However, if there aren't people designing new parts of
Xthe system (or redesigning existing parts), the entire system will
Xsuffer for it.
X
X
XIf you see that the i386 port has fewer features than you think it
Xshould, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.  you'll note that not all ports have
Xthat problem; maintenance of a port is up to its maintainer.
X
XThere are a _lot_ of people and institutions using NetBSD, and many of
Xthem based their decisions on the fact that the code _does_ have the
Xquality it has, or the fact that we support as many systems as we do.
XThat's what we've always set out to do, and I, for one, plan to keep
Xdoing it.
X
X
XAs for why _I_, personally, spend so much time 'designing' things
Xrather than integrating i386 software:
X
XYou know, except for the i386 i use as a terminal (it's got 4M RAM and
Xonly 100M disk, so it's not really useful as a development system),
Xi've not had an i386-family machine in my office or home for over a
Xyear.
X
XFor the last year or so, i've _only_ had access to Alphas, and,
Xfrankly, i like them a heck of a lot more than i've ever liked the
Xx86.  To start, they're faster...  8-)
X
XA lot of the work that i do is directly in support of the Alpha port.
X(You'll also note that for the last year, working on NetBSD/Alpha has
Xbeen my paying job, as well...  8-)  That means completely rewriting
Xmonstrously broken code, all over the source tree.  Very little code
Xis written with the goal of multi-architecture compatibility in mind,
Xand even less can be shared between 32-bit and 64-bit architectures.
XThat's one of the things that i'm trying to fix in the NetBSD source
Xtree.
X
XThe 'redesign' work that i've done for the alpha port has (amazingly)
Xbenefitted the i386 significantly.  Some of those benefits you've
Xseen, some of them i'm still working on...
X
X
X
XMy point is:
X
XAn operating system without good, designed interfaces isn't worth the
Xpaper it's listed on, to researchers and develoepers, regardless of
Xthe number of features it has.
X
XIf you want 'advanced' features incorporated into NetBSD, then:
X	(1) integrate them yourself, and make them available for
X		comment, etc., and use the feedback you get to improve
X		them. 
X	(2) support the developers.  As far as i know, i'm the _only_
X		NetBSD developer who's ever been paid to work on a
X		port of NetBSD, and i'm (and you're 8-) lucky that my
X		boss lets me work on things that appear irrelevant
X		to the port...  Very few of the developers have even
X		received hardware to develop things on; it's
X		impossible to test, develop, and maintain APM support,
X		for instance, unless you have hardware that uses APM.
X
X
Xchris
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XReplied: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:51:17 -0600
XReplied: "Chris G Demetriou  "
XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA03773; Wed, 21 Jun 95 21:49:52 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9506220349.AA03773@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu id aa01615;
X          21 Jun 95 23:48 EDT
XTo: deraadt@theos.com
XCc: cgd@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: did harvard folks get in touch?
XDate: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 23:48:15 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
Xthinking about writing the thing that i'm going to try get people to
Xcheck off on, a thought popped into my head:
X
Xdid the people at harvard ever get in touch with you?  i pointed margo
Xat you a few weeks ago...
X
X
Xchris
END-of-83
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XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: did harvard folks get in touch? 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 21 Jun 1995 23:48:15 EDT."
X             <9506220349.AA03773@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:51:17 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> did the people at harvard ever get in touch with you?  i pointed margo
X> at you a few weeks ago...
X
Xyes, Aaron and i have been talking a fair bit.  he just received his
Xv8 architecture book, and boy, has he got a lot of reading to do.
END-of-84
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XReplied: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 01:37:54 -0600
XReplied: "Chris G Demetriou  "
XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA03953; Wed, 21 Jun 95 22:13:15 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9506220413.AA03953@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu id aa01665;
X          22 Jun 95 0:12 EDT
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: did harvard folks get in touch? 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:51:17 MDT."
X             <9506220351.AA03785@theos.com> 
XDate: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 00:12:51 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
X> > did the people at harvard ever get in touch with you?  i pointed margo
X> > at you a few weeks ago...
X> 
X> yes, Aaron and i have been talking a fair bit.  he just received his
X> v8 architecture book, and boy, has he got a lot of reading to do.
X
Xheh.  "but the SPARC is such an easy architecture."
X
Xso, do you have a feel with how 'good' he is, and how much experience
Xhe has?  margo said he was sort-of green...
X
X
X
Xchris
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XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: did harvard folks get in touch? 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 22 Jun 1995 00:12:51 EDT."
X             <9506220413.AA03953@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 01:37:54 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> heh.  "but the SPARC is such an easy architecture."
X
Xwho said that?
X
X> so, do you have a feel with how 'good' he is, and how much experience
X> he has?  margo said he was sort-of green...
X
Xhe might be "sort of". he sounds keen, and he is reading. yet he
Xdoesn't even have a machine installed yet... ugh. he did catch me on a
Xfew accidental contradictions when i was describing something, which
Xis healthy to see.
END-of-86
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XReplied: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 08:08:39 -0600
XReplied: "Chris G Demetriou  Theo de Raadt , cgd@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu,
XReplied: core@netbsd.org"
XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA17936; Sat, 24 Jun 95 02:36:50 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9506240836.AA17936@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu id aa09087;
X          24 Jun 95 4:36 EDT
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XCc: cgd@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu, core@netbsd.org
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: Where to go from here? 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 30 May 1995 17:07:13 MDT."
X             <9505302307.AA17026@theos.com> 
XDate: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 04:35:53 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
XA while ago, you (Theo) said:
X> i am willing to accept any terms and methods that all other
X> netbsd-involved persons accept and use with their own personal mails.
X
XDoes that mean that if i come up with a statement/set of
Xterms/something-or-other, and everyone who has CVS access agrees to
Xit, that you will as well?
X
X
X
X
Xchris
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XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
Xcc: Theo de Raadt , cgd@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu,
X    core@netbsd.org
XSubject: Re: Where to go from here? 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 24 Jun 1995 04:35:53 EDT."
X             <9506240836.AA17936@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 08:08:39 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xwell, i can't promise that i will agree with a document that i haven't
Xseen, but there's a good chance.
END-of-88
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XReturn-Path: deraadt@theos.com
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from localhost.theos.com by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA19214; Sat, 24 Jun 95 08:08:40 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9506241408.AA19214@theos.com>
XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XCc: Theo de Raadt , cgd@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu,
X        core@netbsd.org
XSubject: Re: Where to go from here? 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 24 Jun 1995 04:35:53 EDT."
X             <9506240836.AA17936@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 08:08:39 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xwell, i can't promise that i will agree with a document that i haven't
Xseen, but there's a good chance.
END-of-89
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XReplied: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 08:16:24 -0600
XReplied: "Chris G Demetriou  Theo de Raadt , cgd@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu,
XReplied: core@netbsd.org"
XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA19266; Sat, 24 Jun 95 08:14:55 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9506241414.AA19266@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu id aa09834;
X          24 Jun 95 10:14 EDT
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XCc: cgd@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu, core@netbsd.org
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: Where to go from here? 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 24 Jun 1995 08:08:39 MDT."
X             <9506241408.AA19214@theos.com> 
XDate: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 10:14:12 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
XYou said:
X> well, i can't promise that i will agree with a document that i haven't
X> seen, but there's a good chance.
X
Xobviously...  however, previously you'd said:
X
X> i am willing to accept any terms and methods that all other
X> netbsd-involved persons accept and use with their own personal mails.
X
XMy question is, more correctly: is the phrase "all other
Xnetbsd-involved persons" appropriate interpreted as "everyone who has
Xsource tree access"?
X
X
XI.e. I'm trying to make _sure_ you don't want me to come up with
Xsomething that everybody who's ever thought of mailing
Xmajordomo@netbsd.org would find acceptable, before i start trying to
Xget people to agree to things...  8-)
X
X
X
Xchris
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XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
Xcc: Theo de Raadt , cgd@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu,
X    core@netbsd.org
XSubject: Re: Where to go from here? 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 24 Jun 1995 10:14:12 EDT."
X             <9506241414.AA19266@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 08:16:24 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xyes, i was implying persons with source tree access.
END-of-91
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XReturn-Path: deraadt@theos.com
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from localhost.theos.com by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA19316; Sat, 24 Jun 95 08:16:25 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9506241416.AA19316@theos.com>
XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XCc: Theo de Raadt , cgd@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu,
X        core@netbsd.org
XSubject: Re: Where to go from here? 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 24 Jun 1995 10:14:12 EDT."
X             <9506241414.AA19266@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 08:16:24 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xyes, i was implying persons with source tree access.
END-of-92
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XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA09923; Tue, 27 Jun 95 14:35:34 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9506272035.AA09923@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu id aa08588;
X          27 Jun 95 16:34 EDT
XTo: deraadt@theos.com
XCc: cgd@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: btw...
XDate: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 16:34:41 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
Xi sent some mail out to core about getting various the various people
Xwith CVS access to agree to 'something' 3.5 days ago.  Needless to
Xsay, i've not heard anything back.  when "4 days" rolls around
X(i.e. in about 12 hours), i'm going to send them a ping.  *sigh*
X
X
Xcgd
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XTo: cgd@netbsd.org
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XSubject: mvme port
XDate: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 14:35:32 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xdale's port is quite a bit worse than what chuck and i have. i
Xwouldn't recommend merging it because the stuff afterwards is quite
Xdifferent. it is functional, but certainly not clean. though he does
Xhave some good parts i look forward to copying.
X
Xof course, i've not told him that. i don't think he'd care too much,
Xand i think he suspects that i am going to merge the good bits from
Xhis port.
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XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: mvme port 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 1995 16:49:36 EDT."
X             <9506272049.AA10022@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 14:51:18 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> However, i was planning to throw the .tar he put up in arch/mvme.  any
X> strong objections to that?
X
Xthe ftp area? no objection about that. i don't feel like telling the
Xworld about this incomplete port yet...
END-of-95
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XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: mvme port 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:03:57 EDT."
X             <9506272104.AA10142@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:06:01 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> > i don't feel like telling the
X> > world about this incomplete port yet...
X> 
X> Well, he sort-of already did...  8-)
X
Xi meant my incomplete port, not his incomplete port.  also, i think
Xthe use of 8K pagesizes on what normally are 4M machines is kinda
Xcrazy...
END-of-96
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XReplied: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:40:29 -0600
XReplied: "Chris G Demetriou  "
XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA10380; Tue, 27 Jun 95 15:38:43 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9506272138.AA10380@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by lagavulin.pdl.cs.cmu.edu id aa08705;
X          27 Jun 95 17:38 EDT
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: mvme port 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:06:01 MDT."
X             <9506272106.AA10156@theos.com> 
XDate: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:38:27 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
X> i meant my incomplete port, not his incomplete port.
X
Xheh.
X
X> also, i think
X> the use of 8K pagesizes on what normally are 4M machines is kinda
X> crazy...
X
Xhmm.  I hope that you're going to have __LDPGSZ be 8k, at least...
Xi do not want to have another m68k4k port show up (and, indeed, i'd
Xlike to see the hp300 converted to m68k8k, but we probably shouldn't
Xbring that up _again_...  8-).
X
X
Xchris
END-of-97
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XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XSubject: Re: mvme port 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:38:27 EDT."
X             <9506272138.AA10380@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:40:29 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> > also, i think
X> > the use of 8K pagesizes on what normally are 4M machines is kinda
X> > crazy...
X> 
X> hmm.  I hope that you're going to have __LDPGSZ be 8k, at least...
X> i do not want to have another m68k4k port show up (and, indeed, i'd
X> like to see the hp300 converted to m68k8k, but we probably shouldn't
X> bring that up _again_...  8-).
X
Xit is of course binary compatible to the standard m68k ports. it is,
Xhowever, minimally diffable against the hp300 port in most places.
X
Xwell, actually, it should be brought up again, but only when someone
Xelse actually takes that port over and updates it. it's got some funny
Xbugs in it which i ran into when porting.
END-of-98
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XTo: pk@netbsd.org
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XSubject: sun4m
XDate: Mon, 03 Jul 1995 17:27:41 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> +  *  format (stolen from Amoeba): SRACC_sssuuu,
X
Xi like to suggest you delete part of that comment. any reference to
XAmoeba, which has a fairly nasty copyright, is probably bad...
END-of-99
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XTo: Paul Kranenburg 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jul 1995 21:09:26 +0200."
X             <9507051909.AA00109@cs.few.eur.nl> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Wed, 05 Jul 1995 13:13:44 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xwhy are you asking me?
Xother actions speak that i am not part of a team.
END-of-100
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XTo: "Chris G. Demetriou" 
Xcc: deraadt@theos.com, chuck@maria.wustl.edu
XSubject: Re: [cmu.andrew.internet.computing.pci-sig] Re: Ethernet/SCSI PCI devices 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 14 Jul 1995 02:15:37 EDT."
X             <9507140616.AA09557@theos.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 00:19:07 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> thought you might be vaguely interested to see this, if you didn't
X> already know about it.
X> 
X>> Apparently AMD are discontinuing the device - our UK contact has been
X>> advised that it should not be used in new designs.  The separate SCSI and
X>> PC-Net devices are not affected.
X
Xinteresting. by the way, the real Lance chip is no longer available
Xanymore, and some people I know have not even been able to find second
Xsources..
X
Xthis, according to my sources at motorola, is why the 16x, 17x, 18x,
Xand 160x boards use the i82596. the circuit diagrams i have even call
Xit the "LancePAL", but it sure isn't a lance on the board.
END-of-101
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XReplied: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 19:13:06 -0600
XReplied: "Paul Kranenburg  "
XReturn-Path: pk@cs.few.eur.nl
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from cs.few.eur.nl (kaa.cs.few.eur.nl) by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA19436; Sat, 15 Jul 95 13:55:55 MDT
XReceived: by cs.few.eur.nl (5.67/EUR)
X	id AA04519; Sat, 15 Jul 95 21:55:50 +0200
XDate: Sat, 15 Jul 95 21:55:50 +0200
XFrom: Paul Kranenburg 
XMessage-Id: <9507151955.AA04519@cs.few.eur.nl>
XTo: deraadt@theos.com
X
XI'll be on holiday for the next 16 days or so.
X
XPlease do not send a why-are-you-telling-me-this,I'm-not-a-part-
Xin-your-plans kind of reply. I'd just like to inform that you
Xshouldn't expect a prompt reply in case you'd mail me about anything.
X
XI'm probably back on-line on Aug 2.
X
X-pk
END-of-102
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XTo: Paul Kranenburg 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 15 Jul 1995 21:55:50 +0200."
X             <9507151955.AA04519@cs.few.eur.nl> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 19:13:06 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> Please do not send a why-are-you-telling-me-this,I'm-not-a-part-
X> in-your-plans kind of reply.
X
XYou can quite easily understand that I would not like to be asked
Xquestions like that (which, I might have already solved in my own
Xsources, and until things change my sources are independent). Why?
XBecause I am not being asked any questions EXCEPT those which you feel
Xto ask me about, and not others that are being made to the tree -- and
Xwhich quite often are not correct.
X
XI don't mean to be rude, but you guys are doing a WONDERFUL job of not
Xsolving a major problem which is at hand. Apparently it was promised
Xon the mailing lists that you guys would do your best to solve those
Xpolitical problems, but thus far no solution has come out. Soon it
Xwill be time to tell the mailing lists of those efforts and, I expect,
Xwhy they failed.
X
XOf course, I was sorely dissapointed to see a member of core on a
Xmailing list say far worse than I ever have, and of course... not an
Xiota of public discipline. Do you want me to go on further? I think
XI'll stop.
X
X> I'd just like to inform that you
X> shouldn't expect a prompt reply in case you'd mail me about anything.
X
XUntil some things change, there isn't much of anything I would mail
Xyou about, Paul. My own sparc changes are for me to run a stable
Xkernel here for my developments of other ports, but I've effectively
Xstopped doing any further sparc work because it's very dull working
Xalone.  I've got lots of things I just need to sit down and write,
Xbecause I know how to, but I've got better things to work on. The
XNetBSD political process sucks, and apparently is controlled by one
Xperson who hates me.
X
XI was promised by core that some "agreement that everyone else will
Xagree to" would come down to me eventually, and it was impressed on me
Xthat there wasn't any other core business to talk about. Nor sparc
Xstuff, because until that stuff finishes, my sparc work is seperate.
END-of-103
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XTo: jconklin@netcom.com (J.T. Conklin)
Xcc: Hubert.Feyrer@rz.uni-regensburg.de (Hubert Feyrer), pink@fsz.bme.hu,
X    current-users@netbsd.org
XSubject: Re: /etc/default 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 25 Jul 1995 12:09:22 PDT."
X             <199507251909.MAA10193@netcom20.netcom.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 16:49:21 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> > Nsswitch is AFAIK done via /etc/resolv.conf, no need to start hacking that.
X> 
X> I disagree.  There are lots more databases that need to be configured
X> than just hosts...
X> 
X> I believe that a nsswitch.conf-like mechanism where the adminstrator
X> can select the type (file, dns, yp, hesiod, etc.) and resolution order
X> of database services for passwd, group, hosts, networks, protocols,
X> rpc, ethers, etc. would be a good thing.
X
Xand many of those databases already have methods to say how/when they
Xshould lookup.
X
Xbasically, nsswitch.conf is wrong for (at least) passwd, group, and ethers
Xbecause those files quite specifically in them say WHEN YP should be pulled
Xin. YP should be pulled in with you hit the +. it is a lie to specify in
Xnsswitch.conf that YP should be looked up first.
X
Xso what needs the nsswitch.conf? perhaps the other databases you mention.
Xbut it isn't hard to make the other databases also understand a + in them.
Xor, as i've suggested many times before, @ for hesiod.
END-of-104
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XReplied: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 02:28:06 -0600
XReplied: "Chris G Demetriou  Rob Healey ,
XReplied: John Stone , port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG"
XReturn-Path: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from pain.lcs.mit.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA05919; Fri, 4 Aug 95 00:31:07 MDT
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XMessage-Id: <199508040421.AAA07341@pain.lcs.mit.edu>
XReceived: from localhost by BALVENIE.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU id aa02693;
X          4 Aug 95 0:21 EDT
XTo: Rob Healey 
XCc: John Stone , port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: take out the papers and the trash... 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Aug 1995 21:17:21 CDT."
X             <199508040217.VAA18857@kas.helios.mn.org> 
XDate: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 00:18:24 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
XSender: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XPrecedence: list
XX-Loop: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
X
X> 	From looking at the activity of the "core" I'd say all they care
X> 	about is x86. (and Alpha, because of Chris) All other ports are
X> 	basically left swinging in the wind.
X
XThis is, to put it mildly, FALSE.
X
XI'll let other port maintainers talk about what 'core' has done for
Xtheir ports, or how much we prod them, or whatever; i'm not going to
Xwaste my time with it.
X
X
XThe primary responsiblity for ports is on the heads of their
Xmaintainers.  if you have a problem with the way a maintainer is
Xmaintaining a port, take it up with them.  if that doesn't get you
Xanywhere, take it up with 'core.'  if the maintainer happens to be a
Xmember of 'core', that doesn't change.
X
Xthe core group has always tried to be as hands-off as possible when it
Xcomes to what port maintainers do with their ports.  There are several
Xreasons for this, some of which are:
X
X	(1) micromanagement sucks, and, overall, hurts.
X
X	(2) we have other, better things, to do, than tell people what
X		to do with their ports, when we're unlikely to ever
X		even have the hardware that they support,
X
X	(3) there are several reasons to be a port maintainer;
X		one is to gain experience and to reinforce one's
X		ability to act on one's own.  It would be a shame for
X		us to stifle it.
X
XDon't forget, with a few exceptions (indeed, i think i'm the only
Xperson to get paid hold a full-time position doing anything
Xnetbsd-related, and even that is at the whim of my employersss; most
Xof the stuff i do is in my free time), EVERYONE working on NetBSD is a
Xvolunteer.
X
XUnless you're willing to actually produce code yourself, you shouldn't
Xthrow stones too strongly.
X
X
X
XIf you have a grievance about how a port is being managed, then you
Xshould take it up with the port maintainer, and then, as i said,
X'core'.
X
XNote, however, that saying "the sparc port should have theo's code in
Xit" isn't a valid complaint -- because theo's code has never been
Xoffered to the sparc port's maintainer, to put in, as far as i know.
XTheo doesn't seem to be willing to give out his sources -- even to put
Xthem up for anon-ftp, as far as i can tell.  How can you complain that
Xwe've not integrated his changes, when we can't even _get_ them.  Note
Xalso that responding to that by saying: "well, _he_ should integrate
Xthem" makes no sense -- if he were willing to give out the changes,
Xthen why should he require that he _waste his own time_ integrating
Xthem?  He won't send diffs -- he's already said that that's too much
Xwork.  but if that's too much work, why does he want to do _more_ than
Xthat?  It seems to me that theo can't claim to be acting from a
Xposition of 'good faith' unless he's willing to distribute his sources
Xpublically...
X
X
X
X
X
X
Xcgd
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XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@BALVENIE.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from BALVENIE.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA05431; Thu, 3 Aug 95 22:25:32 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9508040425.AA05431@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by BALVENIE.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU id aa02709;
X          4 Aug 95 0:24 EDT
XTo: deraadt@theos.com
XCc: gillham@andrews.edu, port-sparc@netbsd.org, paul.riethmuller@aus.sun.com
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: take out the papers and the trash... 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 04 Aug 1995 13:12:02 +1000."
X             <9508040312.AA03144@sirius.Aus.Sun.COM> 
XDate: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 00:24:26 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
X[ sorry, but to properly respond to Paul R.'s mail, the following
X  _had_ to be done. ]
X
X
XTheo,
X
XOn port-sparc, Paul.Riethmuller@Aus.Sun.COM (Paul Riethmuller - Qld SE)
Xsaid:
X
X> > So is this code publically available?  I was of the understanding that
X> > Theo didn't want to release any code until he had CVS commit privileges?
X> 
X> It's available on request from Theo.  Email him.
X
XI'd like to obtain a copy of your kernel source tree, and i'd like the
Xability to distribute it freely, under a standard berkeley-style
Xlicense.
X
Xcould you send me a copy, or tell me where to get one?
X
X
X
Xchris
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XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
Xcc: gillham@andrews.edu, port-sparc@netbsd.org,
X    paul.riethmuller@aus.sun.com
XSubject: Re: take out the papers and the trash... 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 04 Aug 1995 00:24:26 EDT."
X             <199508040425.AAA07350@pain.lcs.mit.edu> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 02:01:07 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> [ sorry, but to properly respond to Paul R.'s mail, the following
X>   _had_ to be done. ]
X> 
X> 
X> Theo,
X> 
X> On port-sparc, Paul.Riethmuller@Aus.Sun.COM (Paul Riethmuller - Qld SE)
X> said:
X> 
X> > > So is this code publically available?  I was of the understanding that
X> > > Theo didn't want to release any code until he had CVS commit privileges?
X> > 
X> > It's available on request from Theo.  Email him.
X
Xpaul isn't quite correct: only 2 people have access to my source tree.
Xthey have access because they worked with me to write/test code. chuck
Xand johns -- thanks for working with me. working in a vacuum sucks, and
Xyou filled the vacuum. why the vacuum? because the netbsd core took
Xaway my position as maintainer of the sparc tree. (yeah, yeah, i've
Xheard all the arguments about sending in patches: "hey jason -- would
Xyou be doing extensive hp300 modifications if you had to do it with
Xsomeone else doing the commits?"
X
Xi've never said that just anyone can have access to my source tree.
Xi've sent a few small tidbits to people, that is all.
X
X> I'd like to obtain a copy of your kernel source tree, and i'd like the
X> ability to distribute it freely, under a standard berkeley-style
X> license.
X> 
X> could you send me a copy, or tell me where to get one?
X
Xi sent some code to the (replacement) port-sparc maintainer before. he
Xcommited them to the tree without even mentioning that the changes
Xcame from me. sour grapes? sour grapes is not the issue.
X
Xas well, i feel it to be quite common that new code may be written
Xwith the intention of eventually being `free', but at some earlier
Xstages it might be "i'm keeping close tabs on this -- do not pass it
Xon". i'm keeping close tabs on the sparc stuff i do, for various
Xreasons. (core, chuck, and johns have known what those reasons are for
Xmore than 3 months.)
X
Xfor example, chris: when you were writing the alpha port of netbsd,
Xyou didn't even want any mention of it to be made. hmm -- you had
Xunavailable code (i couldn't even see it). once you told the public
Xabout it, you retained access to certain pieces of the code and didn't
Xcommit them immediately, no? or were things commited to the tree
Ximmediately? were pieces available to anyone any time? i suspect you
Xalso, at times, have held onto other pieces of code for other
Xreasons.
X
Xi'm not trying to suggest that you had incorrect reasons for holding
Xonto code you wrote when you didn't commit it immediately. i'm simply
Xsuggesting that the reasons i have might not be incorrect. core is not
Xgiving me the confidence that the code that i feverishly slaved over
Xwill get me anything. (if anyone here writes code for `nothing', speak
Xup -- i'd like to hear how you do it when you get your baby stolen
Xfrom you. everyone does everything they do to get something.)
X
Xnow: if you suggest giving my code to everyone (by, say, commiting it
Xto the tree on my behalf), no, you cannot have the code for those
Xpurposes. if you want the code so that you can just look at it and use
Xit personally, i suspect i will give it to you. but you'll have to
Xwait until i get back from a week long caving trip on Vancouver
XIsland.
X
Xbasically i'm saying that if you want the code i might give it to you.
Xif you want to redistribute it further, no you can't. the situation is
Xnot right for me to allow infinite redistribution.
X
X(by the way, has anyone seen the source for all the MBONE utilities
Xfrom LBL? i rest my case.)
X
X(Chris -- i hope you phrase your next request nicer. saying in your
Xfirst line that you just "_had_" to do this, which essentially amounts
Xto baiting me, could be considered rude in some corners. know what i
Xmean? after all, i should know, because if port-sparc was taken away
Xfrom me for being rude in personal & private email with an individual
Xwho was spamming my machine.... then certainly you should know how to
Xbe politically correct and not-rude when posting to a mailing list,
Xshouldn't you?)
END-of-107
echo x - 108
sed 's/^X//' >108 << 'END-of-108'
XReturn-Path: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from pain.lcs.mit.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA07471; Fri, 4 Aug 95 05:14:46 MDT
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X	id AA06289; Fri, 4 Aug 95 02:01:10 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9508040801.AA06289@theos.com>
XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XCc: gillham@andrews.edu, port-sparc@netbsd.org, paul.riethmuller@Aus.Sun.COM
XSubject: Re: take out the papers and the trash... 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 04 Aug 1995 00:24:26 EDT."
X             <199508040425.AAA07350@pain.lcs.mit.edu> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 02:01:07 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
XSender: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XPrecedence: list
XX-Loop: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
X
X> [ sorry, but to properly respond to Paul R.'s mail, the following
X>   _had_ to be done. ]
X> 
X> 
X> Theo,
X> 
X> On port-sparc, Paul.Riethmuller@Aus.Sun.COM (Paul Riethmuller - Qld SE)
X> said:
X> 
X> > > So is this code publically available?  I was of the understanding that
X> > > Theo didn't want to release any code until he had CVS commit privileges?
X> > 
X> > It's available on request from Theo.  Email him.
X
Xpaul isn't quite correct: only 2 people have access to my source tree.
Xthey have access because they worked with me to write/test code. chuck
Xand johns -- thanks for working with me. working in a vacuum sucks, and
Xyou filled the vacuum. why the vacuum? because the netbsd core took
Xaway my position as maintainer of the sparc tree. (yeah, yeah, i've
Xheard all the arguments about sending in patches: "hey jason -- would
Xyou be doing extensive hp300 modifications if you had to do it with
Xsomeone else doing the commits?"
X
Xi've never said that just anyone can have access to my source tree.
Xi've sent a few small tidbits to people, that is all.
X
X> I'd like to obtain a copy of your kernel source tree, and i'd like the
X> ability to distribute it freely, under a standard berkeley-style
X> license.
X> 
X> could you send me a copy, or tell me where to get one?
X
Xi sent some code to the (replacement) port-sparc maintainer before. he
Xcommited them to the tree without even mentioning that the changes
Xcame from me. sour grapes? sour grapes is not the issue.
X
Xas well, i feel it to be quite common that new code may be written
Xwith the intention of eventually being `free', but at some earlier
Xstages it might be "i'm keeping close tabs on this -- do not pass it
Xon". i'm keeping close tabs on the sparc stuff i do, for various
Xreasons. (core, chuck, and johns have known what those reasons are for
Xmore than 3 months.)
X
Xfor example, chris: when you were writing the alpha port of netbsd,
Xyou didn't even want any mention of it to be made. hmm -- you had
Xunavailable code (i couldn't even see it). once you told the public
Xabout it, you retained access to certain pieces of the code and didn't
Xcommit them immediately, no? or were things commited to the tree
Ximmediately? were pieces available to anyone any time? i suspect you
Xalso, at times, have held onto other pieces of code for other
Xreasons.
X
Xi'm not trying to suggest that you had incorrect reasons for holding
Xonto code you wrote when you didn't commit it immediately. i'm simply
Xsuggesting that the reasons i have might not be incorrect. core is not
Xgiving me the confidence that the code that i feverishly slaved over
Xwill get me anything. (if anyone here writes code for `nothing', speak
Xup -- i'd like to hear how you do it when you get your baby stolen
Xfrom you. everyone does everything they do to get something.)
X
Xnow: if you suggest giving my code to everyone (by, say, commiting it
Xto the tree on my behalf), no, you cannot have the code for those
Xpurposes. if you want the code so that you can just look at it and use
Xit personally, i suspect i will give it to you. but you'll have to
Xwait until i get back from a week long caving trip on Vancouver
XIsland.
X
Xbasically i'm saying that if you want the code i might give it to you.
Xif you want to redistribute it further, no you can't. the situation is
Xnot right for me to allow infinite redistribution.
X
X(by the way, has anyone seen the source for all the MBONE utilities
Xfrom LBL? i rest my case.)
X
X(Chris -- i hope you phrase your next request nicer. saying in your
Xfirst line that you just "_had_" to do this, which essentially amounts
Xto baiting me, could be considered rude in some corners. know what i
Xmean? after all, i should know, because if port-sparc was taken away
Xfrom me for being rude in personal & private email with an individual
Xwho was spamming my machine.... then certainly you should know how to
Xbe politically correct and not-rude when posting to a mailing list,
Xshouldn't you?)
END-of-108
echo x - 109
sed 's/^X//' >109 << 'END-of-109'
XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
Xcc: Rob Healey ,
X    John Stone , port-sparc@netbsd.org
XSubject: Re: take out the papers and the trash... 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 04 Aug 1995 00:18:24 EDT."
X             <199508040421.AAA07341@pain.lcs.mit.edu> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 02:28:06 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> Note, however, that saying "the sparc port should have theo's code in
X> it" isn't a valid complaint -- because theo's code has never been
X> offered to the sparc port's maintainer, to put in, as far as i know.
X> Theo doesn't seem to be willing to give out his sources -- even to put
X> them up for anon-ftp, as far as i can tell.
X
Xi've given a few bits. i wasn't happy with the "feel good" quotient i
Xgot back from doing so. when something doesn't "feel good" enough,
Xsometimes one just gives up.
X
X> How can you complain that we've not integrated his changes, when we
X> can't even _get_ them.
X
Xa clear path for resolving this situation has been in the the
Xworks. or so core has told me in private email. email conversations
Xfrom months ago. chris -- what a lot of these people are saying IS
X"resolve the stupid situation, core -- you're being childish!"
X
Xit has been 7 months since i was kicked out from being port-sparc
Xmaintainer. you didn't even tell a lot of people of the situation.
Xfor a small time you acted as if it was a private internal affair that
Xnothing should be known about. then you came out and admitted what
Xsituation it was. what it amounts to was "CLEARLY private and CLEARLY
Xpersonal mail of an insulting manner towards a person who happens to
Xbe mailbombing your machine is not acceptable, IF that person is also
Xinvolved in NetBSD." (spot situation: you and your wife both work at
Xthe same place. things are rough, and at home you have a huge fight.
Xshe tape records it and (without your permission) plays it back to
Xyour boss at work, and he fires you for it."
X
Xit's been made clear again that the entire premise is stupid, and
Xyou've even sent me email saying that large parts of what core did was
Xreally stupid, and that you'd like to resolve the situation, and here
Xyou are attacking my agenda?
X
Xwhat is your agenda, chris: is it the one where core is coming up with
Xa document that all port-masters have to sign (which will likely say
Xthat your private and personal email to other people who happen to be
Xin the same project, but attack your machine and then forward mail
Xthat you sent to them privately) .. is it that agenda?
X
Xroughly said: you stole my baby from me, and now you expect me to
Xcontinue sending you child care funds? i will support the baby if it
Xis mine, but why would i want to do it otherwise?
X
Xfor the sheer twistedness of listening to you attack me publically??
X
X> Note
X> also that responding to that by saying: "well, _he_ should integrate
X> them" makes no sense -- if he were willing to give out the changes,
X> then why should he require that he _waste his own time_ integrating
X> them?
X
Xi want to commit them myself. i did that since the first import of
Xthe sparc code into the tree.
X
X> He won't send diffs -- he's already said that that's too much
X> work.
X
Xmore than 10,000 lines of diff -bc, and a bunch of new files.  pk has
Xindicated that he has no problem with me having commit access (right,
Xpaul? i think you say that in four pieces of email). but core doesn't
Xgive me source tree access to do what the port-master considers ok.
X
X> but if that's too much work, why does he want to do _more_ than
X> that?
X
Xmore than what? i'm not doing any port-sparc source code development
Xat the moment. the political situation does not give me enough rewards
Xto either
X
X	(a) give my work out. everyone does something for something.
X	    the good feelings at the moment are not good enough.
X	(b) continue sparc development. i'm working on another port, and
X	    being paid to do so (no, chris, you are not the only person
X	    paid to do full-time development, and you've known it for
X	    months too). in a few months i'll be working on another port,
X	    also being paid for that. the code will likely remain free in
X	    some form, but it isn't clear what that form will be. some
X	    people are talking about forming a new BSD, one without politics.
X	    or at least the politics that really hurt me, and won't let up.
X	    if something can be salvaged (guys, it's been 7 months already)
X	    that would perhaps be ok. but definately the good feelings
X	    have to come back.
X
X
X> It seems to me that theo can't claim to be acting from a
X> position of 'good faith' unless he's willing to distribute his sources
X> publically...
X
Xa lot of people have said the same about the mbone code, and
Xabsolutely torched van & mccanne publically. my reasons for
Xwithholding code are not the same as the folks at LBL, but that
Xdoesn't mean they are wrong. the premise you are using is that "code
Xtheo sweated over should be completely free or he is acting in "bad
Xfaith".
X
Xyou are making me angry, chris. but that's ok -- i know how to deal
Xwith that now. i'll just go caving instead... and very soon it will be
X8 months.
END-of-109
echo x - 110
sed 's/^X//' >110 << 'END-of-110'
XReturn-Path: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from pain.lcs.mit.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA07628; Fri, 4 Aug 95 05:59:20 MDT
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X	id AA06355; Fri, 4 Aug 95 02:28:08 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9508040828.AA06355@theos.com>
XTo: Chris G Demetriou 
XCc: Rob Healey , John Stone ,
X        port-sparc@netbsd.org
XSubject: Re: take out the papers and the trash... 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 04 Aug 1995 00:18:24 EDT."
X             <199508040421.AAA07341@pain.lcs.mit.edu> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 02:28:06 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
XSender: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XPrecedence: list
XX-Loop: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
X
X> Note, however, that saying "the sparc port should have theo's code in
X> it" isn't a valid complaint -- because theo's code has never been
X> offered to the sparc port's maintainer, to put in, as far as i know.
X> Theo doesn't seem to be willing to give out his sources -- even to put
X> them up for anon-ftp, as far as i can tell.
X
Xi've given a few bits. i wasn't happy with the "feel good" quotient i
Xgot back from doing so. when something doesn't "feel good" enough,
Xsometimes one just gives up.
X
X> How can you complain that we've not integrated his changes, when we
X> can't even _get_ them.
X
Xa clear path for resolving this situation has been in the the
Xworks. or so core has told me in private email. email conversations
Xfrom months ago. chris -- what a lot of these people are saying IS
X"resolve the stupid situation, core -- you're being childish!"
X
Xit has been 7 months since i was kicked out from being port-sparc
Xmaintainer. you didn't even tell a lot of people of the situation.
Xfor a small time you acted as if it was a private internal affair that
Xnothing should be known about. then you came out and admitted what
Xsituation it was. what it amounts to was "CLEARLY private and CLEARLY
Xpersonal mail of an insulting manner towards a person who happens to
Xbe mailbombing your machine is not acceptable, IF that person is also
Xinvolved in NetBSD." (spot situation: you and your wife both work at
Xthe same place. things are rough, and at home you have a huge fight.
Xshe tape records it and (without your permission) plays it back to
Xyour boss at work, and he fires you for it."
X
Xit's been made clear again that the entire premise is stupid, and
Xyou've even sent me email saying that large parts of what core did was
Xreally stupid, and that you'd like to resolve the situation, and here
Xyou are attacking my agenda?
X
Xwhat is your agenda, chris: is it the one where core is coming up with
Xa document that all port-masters have to sign (which will likely say
Xthat your private and personal email to other people who happen to be
Xin the same project, but attack your machine and then forward mail
Xthat you sent to them privately) .. is it that agenda?
X
Xroughly said: you stole my baby from me, and now you expect me to
Xcontinue sending you child care funds? i will support the baby if it
Xis mine, but why would i want to do it otherwise?
X
Xfor the sheer twistedness of listening to you attack me publically??
X
X> Note
X> also that responding to that by saying: "well, _he_ should integrate
X> them" makes no sense -- if he were willing to give out the changes,
X> then why should he require that he _waste his own time_ integrating
X> them?
X
Xi want to commit them myself. i did that since the first import of
Xthe sparc code into the tree.
X
X> He won't send diffs -- he's already said that that's too much
X> work.
X
Xmore than 10,000 lines of diff -bc, and a bunch of new files.  pk has
Xindicated that he has no problem with me having commit access (right,
Xpaul? i think you say that in four pieces of email). but core doesn't
Xgive me source tree access to do what the port-master considers ok.
X
X> but if that's too much work, why does he want to do _more_ than
X> that?
X
Xmore than what? i'm not doing any port-sparc source code development
Xat the moment. the political situation does not give me enough rewards
Xto either
X
X	(a) give my work out. everyone does something for something.
X	    the good feelings at the moment are not good enough.
X	(b) continue sparc development. i'm working on another port, and
X	    being paid to do so (no, chris, you are not the only person
X	    paid to do full-time development, and you've known it for
X	    months too). in a few months i'll be working on another port,
X	    also being paid for that. the code will likely remain free in
X	    some form, but it isn't clear what that form will be. some
X	    people are talking about forming a new BSD, one without politics.
X	    or at least the politics that really hurt me, and won't let up.
X	    if something can be salvaged (guys, it's been 7 months already)
X	    that would perhaps be ok. but definately the good feelings
X	    have to come back.
X
X
X> It seems to me that theo can't claim to be acting from a
X> position of 'good faith' unless he's willing to distribute his sources
X> publically...
X
Xa lot of people have said the same about the mbone code, and
Xabsolutely torched van & mccanne publically. my reasons for
Xwithholding code are not the same as the folks at LBL, but that
Xdoesn't mean they are wrong. the premise you are using is that "code
Xtheo sweated over should be completely free or he is acting in "bad
Xfaith".
X
Xyou are making me angry, chris. but that's ok -- i know how to deal
Xwith that now. i'll just go caving instead... and very soon it will be
X8 months.
END-of-110
echo x - 111
sed 's/^X//' >111 << 'END-of-111'
XReturn-Path: Chris_G_Demetriou@BALVENIE.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from BALVENIE.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA07716; Fri, 4 Aug 95 06:17:30 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9508041217.AA07716@theos.com>
XReceived: from localhost by BALVENIE.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU id aa02956;
X          4 Aug 95 8:17 EDT
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XCc: gillham@andrews.edu, port-sparc@netbsd.org, paul.riethmuller@aus.sun.com
XPrecedence: special-delivery
XX-Copyright: Copyright 1995, Christopher G. Demetriou.  All rights reserved.
XX-Notice: Duplication and redistribution prohibited without consent of
X	  the author.
XSubject: Re: take out the papers and the trash... 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 04 Aug 1995 02:01:07 MDT."
X             <9508040801.AA06289@theos.com> 
XDate: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 08:16:41 -0400
XFrom: Chris G Demetriou 
X
X> > [ sorry, but to properly respond to Paul R.'s mail, the following
X> >   _had_ to be done. ]
X> > 
X> > 
X> > Theo,
X> > 
X> > On port-sparc, Paul.Riethmuller@Aus.Sun.COM (Paul Riethmuller - Qld SE)
X> > said:
X> > 
X> > > > So is this code publically available?  I was of the understanding that
X> > > > Theo didn't want to release any code until he had CVS commit privileges?
X> > > 
X> > > It's available on request from Theo.  Email him.
X> 
X> paul isn't quite correct: only 2 people have access to my source tree.
X
XThat was my point, exactly.  His statement was not correct.
XThe reason for the []'d comment was that i _could not_ leave his
X(incorrect) statement unchallenged.  Indeed, if i could have debunked
Xhis statement without involving you, then i would have -- but
Xbecause of the nature the statement, that was obviously not possible.
X
X
XI don't dispute your right to do _whatever you'd like_ with your code;
Xnever have, never will.  Indeed, i think i _agree_ with some of your
Xreasons for witholding it.  But that wasn't the point.
X
X
XHowever, when you have people claiming on your behalf that all people
Xhave to do to get your code is send you mail, you should certainly
Xexpect to get mail about it!
X
X
X
Xcgd
END-of-111
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sed 's/^X//' >112 << 'END-of-112'
XReturn-Path: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from pain.lcs.mit.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA10726; Fri, 4 Aug 95 17:32:43 MDT
XReceived: (from daemon@localhost) by pain.lcs.mit.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id SAA08120; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 18:01:17 -0400
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X	id AA10118; Fri, 4 Aug 95 15:55:28 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9508042155.AA10118@theos.com>
XTo: lm@slovax.engr.sgi.com (Larry McVoy)
XCc: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XSubject: Re: SplinterBSD (err NetBSD/sparc) 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 04 Aug 1995 13:28:47 PDT."
X             <9508042028.AA04524@slovax.engr.sgi.com> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 15:55:19 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
XSender: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XPrecedence: list
XX-Loop: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
X
X> Never mind, I'll shut up.  Maybe one little point: this is what the BSD 
X> copyright gets you - nothing but flaming.
X
Xlarry,
X
Xyou can't blame the BSD copyright for this one -- this is a case of a
Xfew people flexing their muscles and showing their power. if the linux
Xcamp doesn't have these flame wars it is because it doesn't have
Xpeople exercising control in this way.
X
X(by the way, if there was another bsd created, i have the disk space
X-- 11G (of which i can definately dedicate... 8). the issue is cost of
Xnetwork bandwidth within calgary. perhaps it should be elsewhere).
X
Xanyways, the caving gear and 40 cd's are in the truck, time to put the
Xkeys into the ignition and get out of here.
END-of-112
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sed 's/^X//' >113 << 'END-of-113'
XReturn-Path: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from pain.lcs.mit.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA15474; Sat, 5 Aug 95 17:35:21 MDT
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XDate: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 16:08:46 -0400
XMessage-Id: <199508052008.QAA13846@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
XFrom: "Charles M. Hannum" 
XTo: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XSubject: Corrections
XSender: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XPrecedence: list
XX-Loop: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
X
X
XI have several things to say about the recent flame war:
X
X1) Theo claims that the situation is analogous to a husband and wife,
Xwho happen to work together, having an argument at home, and one of
Xthem trying to use that to get the other fired.  This is not the case.
XIn the case of Theo and several other people (though he persists in
Xclaiming that it is only one), the `arguments' (which consisted
Xprimarily of vitriol from Theo) were specifically regarding
Xinteractions about NetBSD, not about who sleeps on which side of the
Xbed, or whether he should put the toilet seat down afterward.  I
Xposted a more appropriate analogy a few months ago, and I include that
Xmessage below for reference.
X
X-----8<-----snip-----8<-----snip-----8<-----snip-----8<-----snip-----8<-----
XDate: Fri, 26 May 1995 12:55:57 -0400
XMessage-Id: <199505261655.MAA29845@duality.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
XFrom: "Charles M. Hannum" 
XTo: deraadt@theos.com
XCc: port-sparc@netbsd.org
XSubject: Re: theo's changes
X
X
X   Chris (and the core) apparently believe that a person involved in
X   NetBSD cannot have personal communications with another NetBSD
X   person without those communications impacting the project. i have
X   been punished, meanwhile Jonathan Stone now has CVS access.
X
XThat's a *serious* misrepresentation of the situation.
X
XImagine Company A and Company B are in a callaboration.  Person A from
Xfrom Company A calls up Person B from Company B and starts spewing
Xvitriol at him.  Regardless of whether or not one considers it a
X`private' phone call, and especially since the only reason they are in
Xcontact at all is the callaboration, it is completely reasonable, if
Xnot expected, for Company A to reprimand Person A.  If reprimanding
Xdoesn't work, then more serious action would be taken.
X
XWhile it's true that NetBSD is not a real company, this situation is
Xstill very analogous, and I'm quite certain that the seriousness of
Xyour actions required our response.
X
XBTW, in my experience, Jonathan has been a bit too eager to believe
Xthat someone was stepping on him, but he's always been willing to at
Xleast admit his mistakes.  I've had no quarrel with him that was not
Xresolved satisfactorily within a day.  He was also entirely willing to
Xdistribute his changes even when he didn't have access to the CVS
Xtree.  But Jonathan is also not the only other person involved.
X-----8<-----snip-----8<-----snip-----8<-----snip-----8<-----snip-----8<-----
X
X2) Darren claims there has been no progress on the SPARC port.  That
Xis, in fact, false.  To name just the larger changes:
X
X* Paul incorporated a modified version of David Miller's disassembler
Xfor DDB.
X* Paul did some noticable work on the SPARC pmap code, mostly directed
Xtoward Sun 4m support.
X* Paul incorporated changes from Chuck, Francis Dupont, and Theo to
Xsupport the 4/100 series.
X* Paul incorporated Theo's changes for `swap generic'.
X* Paul ported a floppy driver.
X* Christos made Solaris/SVR4 emulation (mostly) work.
X* Paul incorporated Rolf Grossman's new audio driver.
X* Paul made swapping of upages work.
X* Paul incorporated Jason's `eeprom' kernel changes and utility.
X* Paul incorporated Chuck's SMD disk driver.
X* Paul incorporated Jason's port of the Sun 3 `si' driver.
X
XIn addition, Paul has kept the port up to date with the rest of the
Xsystem (in addition to doing various other work in the source tree),
Xand several people have fixed bugs in it.
X
X3) Darren complains that more people should have access to the CVS
Xtree.  In fact, at least 9 additional people have been given access
Xrecently.
X
X4) I would like to correct a misconception.  While the heyday of
Xdevelopment on the SPARC port was almost certainly while Theo was the
X`port master', this is not solely a reflection on Theo's abilities.
XThe state of the SPARC port at the beginning was fairly bad, and rapid
Xdevelopment is a natural result of that.  Also, even at that time,
Xthere were significant contributions from other people (like the VM
Xchanges that allowed shared libraries to work well, which were written
Xby Paul, or the new (though still slightly toasted) SCSI driver from
XPeter, which allowed tapes to finally work, or the 4/300 support,
Xwhich was initially done by Chuck, or the original 4.4 port from Chris
XTorek, etc.).  While Theo's contributions are certainly appreciated,
Xit would be unreasonable to overlook the other contributors.
X
X5) Larry speaks of hate.  I, for one, do not `hate' Theo -- or anyone
Xelse involved in NetBSD.
X
X6) It seems that several people, most notably David, have resorted to
Xpersonal attacks.  This hardly leaves a good impression of David, much
Xless the Linux/SPARC community.
X
XLastly, if Theo doesn't want to distribute his code, that's his
Xchoice.  But to blame the `core' group for not putting in code that it
Xdoesn't even have is not only unfair, but rather completely illogical.
XI am rather distressed that people seem to be encouraging the `core'
Xgroup to submit to what is essentially a form of blackmail.
X
END-of-113
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XReplied: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 18:20:21 -0600
XReplied: "Paul Kranenburg  "
XReturn-Path: pk@cs.few.eur.nl
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from cs.few.eur.nl (kaa.cs.few.eur.nl) by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA18946; Wed, 30 Aug 95 16:32:40 MDT
XReceived: by cs.few.eur.nl (5.67/EUR)
X	id AA18105; Thu, 31 Aug 95 00:32:30 +0200
XDate: Thu, 31 Aug 95 00:32:30 +0200
XFrom: Paul Kranenburg 
XMessage-Id: <9508302232.AA18105@cs.few.eur.nl>
XTo: deraadt@theos.com
XSubject: status..
X
Xdunno what has been trickling through in the way of rumors but..
XAn unfortunate large portion of Chris' reasons for resigning from
Xcore were related to a large amount of inertia in while trying to
Xget "on paper" a set of rules for managing the project in general
X(and governing source access in particular).
X
XAfter the reality of Chris' decision had sunk in, bit jtc and I have
Xdecided to be "more vocal" to prevent the entire project to collapse
Xbeneath us, which we think is a real risk at this point.
X
XThe organisational structure of the project should be more firmly
Xdescribed, starting with the role of `core'. I have drafted a
X"mission statement" for this purpose (now under review by core)
Xwhich starts to clarify all this. It is broader in scope than what
XChris has proposed during the past months (which has met certain brick
Xwalls :-( ); it's intended to take out some stress that has unnecessary
Xbeen building up over time because of lack of reference guidelines
Xfor anyone to consult.
X
X-pk
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XTo: Paul Kranenburg 
XSubject: Re: status.. 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Aug 1995 00:32:30 +0200."
X             <9508302232.AA18105@cs.few.eur.nl> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 18:20:20 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> dunno what has been trickling through in the way of rumors but..
X
Xi've heard no rumors at all.
X
Xi have no ideas what i'm supposed to say in response to your mail.  i
Xdon't know why you told me any of that. it doesn't change my world.
X
Xi don't know if you have heard, but my 128K ISDN line is on order, and
Xonce it arrives i will likely setup a seperate BSD project.  i'm
Xalready scared of how many times i'll have to explain the `why another
Xone?' to people.
X
Xi might be dissuaded from creating a seperate project. i really don't
Xknow what that would take.
END-of-115
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XTo: pk@netbsd.org
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XSubject: why
XDate: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 13:12:59 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xwhy did you send me that mail yesterday, anyways?  i really am
Xcurious.
X
Xi _really_ have been led to believe that you guys don't give a shit
Xanymore, and wish i'd just go away. it's been _so_ obvious from the
Xmail i have.
END-of-116
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XReplied: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 14:32:04 -0600
XReplied: "Paul Kranenburg  "
XReturn-Path: pk@cs.few.eur.nl
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from cs.few.eur.nl (kaa.cs.few.eur.nl) by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA26843; Thu, 31 Aug 95 14:26:41 MDT
XReceived: by cs.few.eur.nl (5.67/EUR)
X	id AA19551; Thu, 31 Aug 95 22:26:31 +0200
XFrom: Paul Kranenburg 
XMessage-Id: <9508312026.AA19551@cs.few.eur.nl>
XSubject: Re: why
XTo: deraadt@theos.com (Theo de Raadt)
XDate: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 22:26:30 +0200 (MET DST)
XIn-Reply-To: <9508311913.AA26458@theos.com> from "Theo de Raadt" at Aug 31, 95 01:12:59 pm
XX-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL13]
XMime-Version: 1.0
XContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
XContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
XContent-Length: 909       
X
X> 
X> why did you send me that mail yesterday, anyways?  i really am
X> curious.
X> 
X> i _really_ have been led to believe that you guys don't give a shit
X> anymore, and wish i'd just go away. it's been _so_ obvious from the
X> mail i have.
X> 
X
XWell, that was just about the reason I told you what I did. Long silence
Xand the odd flame-war might have led you to believe that. The truth is
Xthat the average point-of-view expressed by `core' does not always
Xcoincide exactly with the opinions of each individual member. Oh, this
Xholds true for any group of people doing business together, I suppose,
Xbut hey..
X
XConsider it a "keep-alive" packet then; something to let you know that
Xsome of us do care of where the project is headed, and try to provide
Xa more stable and inviting environment for people to contribute.
XApparently, this is a difficult task, more difficult than it should be
Xin my opinion, sigh..
X
X-pk
END-of-117
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XTo: Paul Kranenburg 
XSubject: Re: why 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Aug 1995 22:26:30 +0200."
X             <9508312026.AA19551@cs.few.eur.nl> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 14:32:03 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xyou may be surprised at this, but I think you guys owe me a public
Xapology.
X
Xa few friends have argued that since this entire thing exploded
Xbecause my privacy was invaded (personal and private mail was
Xforwarded to the public, and held against me) that i should forward
Xthe mail i've received from core the world. people (who haven't seen
Xit) have suggested i put it up for ftp.
END-of-118
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XReplied: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 15:22:30 -0600
XReplied: "Paul Kranenburg  "
XReturn-Path: pk@cs.few.eur.nl
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from cs.few.eur.nl (kaa.cs.few.eur.nl) by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA27167; Thu, 31 Aug 95 15:13:20 MDT
XReceived: by cs.few.eur.nl (5.67/EUR)
X	id AA25587; Thu, 31 Aug 95 23:13:14 +0200
XFrom: Paul Kranenburg 
XMessage-Id: <9508312113.AA25587@cs.few.eur.nl>
XSubject: Re: why
XTo: deraadt@theos.com (Theo de Raadt)
XDate: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 23:13:14 +0200 (MET DST)
XIn-Reply-To: <9508312032.AA26895@theos.com> from "Theo de Raadt" at Aug 31, 95 02:32:03 pm
XX-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL13]
XMime-Version: 1.0
XContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
XContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
XContent-Length: 656       
X
X> you may be surprised at this, 
X
XNot really.. it has been said before. I personally side with the people
Xwho've said "why can't you make amends, and resume working together".
XFor this to work, everyone has to swallow something or an other, and
Xbe able to learn from the past but otherwise close it up. I'm working
Xhard to get this notion accepted. Going public once again won't help
Xthis effort one bit...
X
XIn case I fail to get anything accomplished, I'll likely start to loose
Xinterest as I don't intend to be a part of a rigid, inert body, unable
Xto reboot once in a while. 't would be sad, because, like anyone else,
XI've invested a lot of time.
X
X-pk
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XTo: Paul Kranenburg 
XSubject: Re: why 
XIn-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Aug 1995 23:13:14 +0200."
X             <9508312113.AA25587@cs.few.eur.nl> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 15:22:30 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xyou guys haven't swallowed anything.  december 15th is coming upon us
Xpretty fast.  you guys have had a LONG time to fix things.  the fact
Xthat it takes months to even DECIDE something like this doesn't speak
Xwell for such a group.
X
Xpaul -- i think netbsd is dead. a lot of people are talking to me
Xas if it were, and a lot of people are looking for alternatives.
X
Xit's been very apparent for a long time that charles runs the show.
Xa lot of people are unhappy with that. shall i give my list of people
Xwho are unhappy with things he's said to them?
X
Xwhy haven't you canned him like you canned me?
X
Xnothing has changed at all. please don't tell me that `I personally
Xside with the people who've said "why can't you make amends, and
Xresume working together"' when it's obviously not what is happening.
Xpaul -- it is a lie to say "everyone has to swallow something" because
Xyou guys haven't swallowed anything.
X
X> Going public once again won't help
X> this effort one bit...
X
Xwhat `effort'? are you saying that this document you are writing is
XONLY FOR MY CASE?
END-of-120
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XTo: pk@netbsd.org
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XSubject: how then?
XDate: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 15:30:06 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xyou most definately are treating me like a special case.
X
Xmore than 5 people have gotten source tree access without having to
Xagree to this document which you are now writing.
X
Xthis strikes you as fair & proper behavioru for a project that you
Xsay is `in danger of falling apart'????!?!?!
END-of-121
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XReturn-Path: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from pain.lcs.mit.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA20480; Mon, 4 Sep 95 22:21:13 MDT
XReceived: (from daemon@localhost) by pain.lcs.mit.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id XAA15617; Mon, 4 Sep 1995 23:23:52 -0400
XReceived: from theos.com by pain.lcs.mit.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA15581 for ; Mon, 4 Sep 1995 23:22:33 -0400
XReceived: from LOCALHOST.theos.com by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA20123; Mon, 4 Sep 95 21:22:10 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9509050322.AA20123@theos.com>
XTo: Peter Galbavy 
XCc: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XSubject: Re: kernel help 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 02 Sep 1995 08:50:59 BST."
X             <199509020750.IAA13028@alice.wonderland.org> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Mon, 04 Sep 1995 21:22:03 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
XSender: owner-port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
XPrecedence: list
XX-Loop: port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG
X
X> Since the, pk and others ahve improved it somewhat, and I here the
X> Caveman has written a better one... but please, someone, rewrite the
X> damned thing from the ground up.
X
Xthis has been mentioned before, but apparently it's been forgotten.
X
Xi have already rewritten the driver from the ground up.
X
Xit isn't in the tree because i haven't been re-given access to commit
Xit. (many others have been given commit access since i wrote it and
Xasked to be given access back -- and as far as i know they haven't had
Xto make any `promises' that i haven't already made.)
END-of-122
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XTo: pk@netbsd.org
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XSubject: time
XDate: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 02:01:36 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xyou guys are taking a _really_ long time at this.
X
Xby the way, my mvme68k port is complete and running stably and solidly
Xon the 68040 versions of the motorola cards. it won't go into the tree
Xunless i commit it.
X
Xin a week i'm onto the next port, and the same rules will hold there.
X
Xat the very least i expected you to give me an account and hold me
Xaccountable to making promises later. just like the other .. what, 15?
Xor is it more? people who HAVE gotten accounts in the same time.
X
Xyou guys are being really damn unfair. you have no excuses for taking so
Xlong, nor for treating me as a special case.
END-of-123
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XTo: pk@netbsd.org, jtc@netbsd.org, chuck@zeus.theos.com,
X    thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, hpeyerl@beer.org, mrg@splode.mame.mu.oz.au,
X    amee@elf.bsdi.com, johns@zeus.theos.com
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XSubject: charles
XDate: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 02:36:28 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
Xi've thought about things somewhat.
X
Xwithout even having seen the `mythical document', i have decided that
Xi will not agree to whatever it says if charles is a member of the
Xnetbsd core.
X
Xit is completely unacceptable for me to have charles in power over me.
Xhe is on a personal vendetta against me.  some people have (**unwisely)
Xforwarded me mail where it is very clear what his opinions are.  it is
Xclear that things would not work.  it is clear he does not want me in
Xthe group.  it is clear -- by how long this has taken -- that you two
Xhave very little control over the situation.  it is obvious that he
Xhas incredible power over you two.  under his power you two have done
Xabsolutely nothing to resolve the situation except talk (your document
Xis just talk).
X
Xeven today i heard of a massively hardline statement made by him. I am
Xincensed by the completely unacceptable malignment of my character
Xthat has happened! of course i know you will do shit all nothing about
Xit.
X
Xit is obvious how much power he has over all of you, actually.  he has
Xpissed of every single one of you AT LEAST as much as i pissed off a
Xmailbombing flake last december.  yet you have done nothing about it,
Xor any of the complaints. charles has trangressed the rules regarding
Xwhat a core member may say far more than i ever did.  so much for
Xtreating everyone the same, guys.  jtc said that people would be
Xtreated the same -- that is either a sign of hypocracy or of
Xpowerlessness.  i've heard whining about "charles has *really* pissed
Xme off yammer yammer yammer" so incredibly many times. nothing happens.
X
Xif you had admitted in april that charles would block the process so
Xunreasonably -- and i am SURE you knew -- then i would have just gone
Xmy own way at that time.  i am sure you all realized long ago that
Xcharles was trying to block whatever process you had.  i've heard
Xabout his unbudging behaviour from every single core member by now.
X
Xno simple document will change that.
X
Xi've hear things like "his influence is waning, he is becoming
Xirrelevant".  such chatter is useless.  it doesn't solve the problem.
X
Xi know that most of you are going to be very sad over this.  you are
Xgoing to be even more sad when openbsd.org opens, because i will tell
Xeveryone why it is being opened. some of you probably think this is
Xsome kind of sick joke. it isn't
X
Xi am also very sad.  i tried all i could to resolve this -- anyone who
Xreads the mail archive that i am making available can tell.  but a
Xpart of me is very glad because i will be free.  i have already had
Xone nervous breakdown over this, in january.  i very nearly had one
Xagain in mid may because of shattered expectations.  severing ties
Xlike this will finally make me free to start my own seperate project,
Xand forget about your stupid unchanging politics.  and by the way, by
Xposting the mail i actually absolve all the core members (execpt
Xcharles) because it is CLEAR you guys tried to solve this -- at least
Xon some superficial `tell theo we are working on it' level.
X
Xyou need not reply to this message.  it is pretty clear that this is
Xnot going to be solved.  i know you are not going to get rid of
Xcharles -- you are not going to remove the block in the entire
Xprocess.  and, of course, any reply you make to this will be forwarded
Xto the world at a later time (as part of my mail archive).  in any
Xcase, i have forwarded this to all of you because, like it or not, you
Xshould see this or will eventually see it anyways.  most of you are
Xpeople who tried.  some of you tried very hard.  but the endless
Xchatter has obviously helped very little.  i am sorry it didn't work.
Xi tried my best.  i will not try anymore.  now i must stop the lies
Xthat have been spread about me.
X
Xif anyone finds a statement in here that they feel is not backed
Xup in fact, and they want a clarification -- ask me and i will show
Xyou where in the mail archive it shows up. some parts might not be
Xprovable by the contents of the mail archive, so i will have to prove
Xit from other mail i have.
X
Xthe mail archive that i am releasing is not blackmail. it will go
Xout. blackmail is something you hold over someone, saying "i will do
XXXX unless you do YYY". since XXX is going to happen irregardless, it
Xisn't blackmail.
X
X---
X** by the way, i don't care if the mail has been forwarded to me `when
Xit should not have been'.  this entire thing started when YOU two
Xvoted against me basing everything on a piece of mail that should have
Xnot been forwarded; and you never even asked why that mail exchange
Xhappened -- because the guy was quite simply mailbombing me!  you guys
Xvoted stupidly and irresponsibly.  also, yesterday jtc stated in irc
Xthat forwarding such mail is not an issue for the netbsd project -- he
Xwas talking about how the initial mail from jonathan was forwarded
Xwithout permission and used to `convict' me. i don't think jtc knew
Xthat i would apply that same rule to other pieces of mail.
END-of-124
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XReturn-Path: hpeyerl@sidney.novatel.ca
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from sidney.novatel.ca by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA23668; Wed, 4 Oct 95 08:33:46 MDT
XReceived: from localhost.novatel.ca (localhost.novatel.ca [127.0.0.1]) by sidney.novatel.ca (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id IAA10324; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:33:42 -0600
XMessage-Id: <199510041433.IAA10324@sidney.novatel.ca>
XX-Authentication-Warning: sidney.novatel.ca: Host localhost.novatel.ca didn't use HELO protocol
XTo: Theo de Raadt 
XCc: pk@netbsd.org, jtc@netbsd.org, chuck@theos.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov,
X        mrg@splode.mame.mu.oz.au, amee@elf.bsdi.com, johns@theos.com
XSubject: Re: charles 
XFrom: Herb Peyerl 
XMime-Version: 1.0
XContent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
XContent-Id: <10320.812817216.1@sidney.novatel.ca>
XDate: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 08:33:36 -0600
XSender: hpeyerl@beer.org
X
XWell Theo;
X
XIt's obvious to me that you've made your decision and you're going to 
Xstick with it.  I'm not going to try to get you to change your mind. 
X
XI wish you luck in all of your future ventures, whether they be
Xopenbsd, caving, cycling, whatever.
X
XI do want to leave you with some passing thoughts however.  As you travel
Xthrough your groups of future friends and aquaintances, think on why
Xthere is a small subset of them that actually can become your true
Xfriends and stay a true friend for any enduring length of time.  Never
Xhave I met someone else who discards friends and pushes away anyone
Xwho is important to him at a rate greater than yourself.
X
XI can only speak on my own experiences with you.  Being your close
Xfriend for the short length of time that I was, I found that, despite
Xall the obvious benefits, the stress you were causing me was too
Xgreat and was affecting my life in negative ways.  This saddens me
Xbecause when you are being just "Theo", you are kind, funny, good
Xto talk to, and a lot of fun to hang around with.  You've introduced
Xme to Mountain Biking and I've gained a lot from that.  You've also
Xintroduced me to Caving which I enjoyed immensely. And you've introduced
Xme to a whole new group of people that I now call friends.  It saddens
Xme to see that very few of those people wish to be your friends now
Xhowever because they at one time cared a great deal about you.  The 
Xproblem comes when you are not being "Theo" but you are this transformed
Xmonster that feels it must criticize and downright insult in order to
Xgive itself some false heightened sense of superiority.  This may 
Xcome as a surprise, but the things that you say are quite hurtful. At
Xone time, I decided that it was just your manner of speaking and that
Xyou weren't actually trying to be hurtful, but sadly, I know that
Xthis is not true. 
X
XYou may remember the following conversation, it comes from a time just
Xbefore "Core" made the decision to seperate you from NetBSD.   It 
Xpretty much says it all, at least in my mind.  To you, you will 
Xview it as dismissable and that the one statement that you made 
Xwas just 7 useless words that can be taken out of context.  But, 
Xbecause I knew you so well (indeed, because we had dinner/beer/coffee
Xevery day for almost 2 years), I knew what the statement really was.
XIt was You being in a bad mood and looking to others to amuse you.
X
X		Welcome to ICB blender
X		[=Status=] You are now in group netbsd  
X		Nick registered
X		urg.
X		/w .
X		 
X		Group: netbsd   (mil) Mod: deraadt       Topic: (None)                        
X		   Nickname     Idle  Resp  Sign-On  Account
X		  *deraadt        8m     -  12:54pm  deraadt@newt.fsa.ca       
X		   glass          6m     -   1:58pm  glass@sun-lamp.cs.berkeley.edu   (nr)
X		   blender         -     -   5:12pm  hpeyerl@bock.fhf.novatel.ca       
X		I'm soooooooooo bored.
X		 Write a driver.
X		started. decided to stop.
X		and when I upgraded cyst it started getting 'Bad system call's and dumping core for things like 'ls', 'pwd', 'make' etc... It's dead.
X		 sounds like april sources.
X		err; not quite adam. More like Sunday night.
X		 Why do you have more problems than the people on
X		 current-users?
X		because the people on current-users aren't running hp300's... Sidney's upgrade went without a hitch.
X		 hmm.thats real odd.
X		 You are running shared libraries, and didn't update ld.so
X		 first.
X		I'm not running shared libraries. There isn't a .so anywhere on the machine (except ld.so).
X		But it's possible the kernel is from June.
X		 Then I guess you are just stupid.
X		thanx. fuck you too theo.
X		/q
X
XThat was the last time I spoke to you in August of 1994.
X
XI know you will completely disregard this message as 'the random rantings
Xof some lunatic that you made the mistake of being friends with' as opposed to
X'a signal that maybe you should be introspective and really look at who you are
Xand why you act the way you do'.  I really do wish you would try to help yourself
Xor allow someone else to help you, for your friendship was something that was
Ximportant to me at one time.  
X
XI made a decision over a year ago that I would not allow myself to fall back
Xinto the trap because I knew I'd get hurt again.  This is why I've tried
Xhard to stay distant even though you have made many offers.  In fact, the few
Xtimes that we did spend time together (Beer at the Ship, Dinner at Hang-Fung's,
XCycling 2 weeks ago) I found that very little had changed in the world of "Theo".
X
XIn the future, I will continue to be friendly to you as I have this past year,
Xbecause it is inevitable that we will run into each other because we do have
Xsome common friends (Andy and Carson being about the only ones I can think of). 
XBut I can not, and will not, allow myself to get dragged back into your highly
Xturbulent world.
X
XI'm sorry.
X
XGood luck.
X
XHerb.
X
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XReturn-Path: chuck@maria.wustl.edu
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from maria.wustl.edu by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA23918; Wed, 4 Oct 95 10:38:23 MDT
XDate:     Wed, 4 Oct 95 11:37:17 CDT
XFrom: Chuck Cranor 
XTo: Herb Peyerl 
XCc: Theo de Raadt , pk@netbsd.org, jtc@netbsd.org,
X        chuck@theos.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, mrg@splode.mame.mu.oz.au,
X        amee@elf.bsdi.com, johns@theos.com
XSubject:  Re:  charles
XMessage-Id:  <9510041137.aa08009@maria.wustl.edu>
X
XHerb-
X
X   I think you've got a point, but you are not looking at the full
Xpicture or addressing all the issues which are in question.   [I do agree
Xthat Theo needs to be more careful about what he says to people because
Xit is easy to hurt someone's feelings without meaning to -- especially
Xover the computer (e.g. calling you stupid was pretty rude).]
X
X
X   The questions you and everyone else should be asking is: what caused 
Xthis problem, what can be done to fix it, and how can we avoid such
Xproblems in the future?
X
X
X   First of all, Theo's "middle of the night" departure from 
Xcore/CVS_access was poorly conceived, poorly thought out, and 
Xdownright ugly.   It was not a moral booster.   I'm not sure 
Xeven a good PR agent/spin-doctor could put a positive spin on it.   
XWhat needed to have happened was that Theo should have been
Xgiven a chance to step down gracefully, without having to give up
Xsource-access, and maybe the sparc-port as well.
X
X   But that is water under the bridge at this point -- it is no longer
Xan issue.    No, the current issue is that Theo has wanted to get back 
Xin the project with source access, has been asking for it, and has been 
Xtold time and time again to wait and wait and wait.    Months have passed 
Xand it has not been possible for core to take a public stand or even 
Xnegotiate in good faith!    Why has this happened?   Because of political
Xturmoil within core itself.    Core has not been able to get its act
Xtogether enough to even speak properly to the issue in a fair way.
XJust yesterday I had Paul telling me that he couldn't afford to wait
Xany longer on this issue and that we needed to get it resolved (which
Xis good!), and on the other hand we have Charles broadcasting stuff 
Xlike "*Mycroft* It's been made clear that Theo will *not* rejoin NetBSD.  
XHe's playing a game with us." on IRC (which is bad!).
X
X
X   Herb, can you blame Theo for being angry about that?   How many
Xmore months did you expect him to wait?    Wouldn't you be angry too?
XI know I'm not very happy about it, and I've been trying to do something
Xabout it by talking to Chris, Theo, and Paul over the past six or seven 
Xmonths (without any results to show for it).   In the mean time Charles
Xhas blocked the healing process with Theo at every turn, flamed people 
X(including me, and also starting that nice FreeBSD flame war on current-users),
Xpissed Chris off enough that he would rather quit core than continue 
Xdealing with directly with Charles, and been a general nuisance at
Xevery turn.    Why can Charles get away with this?    PK and JTC haven't
Xstood up to him in the past.   Chris was tired of standing up to him alone
Xand quit.
X
X
X   How can this all be fixed?    Here are my thoughts.   First of all, 
XTheo is correct about Charles.   It is time to ask for Charles' resignation.   
XWhile Charles is good with the technical stuff, he has no tact, deals poorly 
Xwith other people, and causes turmoil within core.    I think one of 
Xthe requirements for being a member of core should be more that just 
Xbeing good at technical stuff.    All members of core should have good
X"people" skills.    Charles obstructs all the good things PK and JTC
Xare trying to do.    Charles is a poor spokesman for the NetBSD project,
Xand I don't think anyone can dispute that.  Second, we need a strong 
Xstatement from core about how people will be treated (e.g. fairly).    
XI believe Paul is almost done this?   Third, I think core needs to make 
Xsome sort of statement that directly address the situation with Theo and 
Xwraps it up once and for all.   Finally, Theo, I don't think it is a 
Xgood idea to start a new project.   You are only going to go head-long 
Xinto a massive pool of politics -- something you've said you wanted 
Xto avoid.   Think of the headaches!    Think about how much BS is involved 
Xin running a project like this!   You don't really want that -- and think
Xabout what Herb said... what kind of spokesman would you be for your
Xproject?    That isn't the kind of job you enjoy -- it is the kind of
Xjob that gets on your nerves and interferes with friends, family, and fun.
X
X    Let us re-think things.
X
XChuck
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XReplied: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:48:10 -0600
XReplied: "Herb Peyerl  Chuck Cranor ,
XReplied: Theo de Raadt , pk@netbsd.org, jtc@netbsd.org,
XReplied: chuck@theos.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, mrg@splode.mame.mu.oz.au,
XReplied: amee@elf.bsdi.com, johns@theos.com"
XReturn-Path: hpeyerl@sidney.novatel.ca
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from sidney.novatel.ca by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA24049; Wed, 4 Oct 95 11:41:49 MDT
XReceived: from localhost.novatel.ca (localhost.novatel.ca [127.0.0.1]) by sidney.novatel.ca (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA13747; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 11:41:45 -0600
XMessage-Id: <199510041741.LAA13747@sidney.novatel.ca>
XX-Authentication-Warning: sidney.novatel.ca: Host localhost.novatel.ca didn't use HELO protocol
XTo: Chuck Cranor 
XCc: Theo de Raadt , pk@netbsd.org, jtc@netbsd.org,
X        chuck@theos.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, mrg@splode.mame.mu.oz.au,
X        amee@elf.bsdi.com, johns@theos.com
XSubject: Re: charles 
XFrom: Herb Peyerl 
XMime-Version: 1.0
XContent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
XContent-Id: <13744.812828503.1@sidney.novatel.ca>
XDate: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 11:41:43 -0600
XSender: hpeyerl@beer.org
X
XChuck Cranor   wrote:
X >    I think you've got a point, but you are not looking at the full
X > picture or addressing all the issues which are in question.   [I do agree
X > that Theo needs to be more careful about what he says to people because
X > it is easy to hurt someone's feelings without meaning to -- especially
X > over the computer (e.g. calling you stupid was pretty rude).]
X
XI don't disagree with anything you've said.  However, I know that Theo's 
Xangriness does not come from the split that was foisted on him. Theo was
Xangry long before that happened. In fact, as long as I've known Theo, he's
Xbeen angry.  
X
XI agree that Theo is not the kind of person to manage OpenBSD as much as
Xhe wants to, to show the world that he is capable.  Unfortunately, I
Xfeel that this would not only reflect poorly on NetBSD, it would make
Xthe whole *BSD effort look worse than it presently does and will just 
Xcause more people to use Linux. I feel that with the existance of
XOpenBSD, everyone will lose in the end.  The end that I hope is not as
Xinevitable as all the evidence shows.
X
XYou will note that I've deliberately skirted the issue of Charles/Theo
Xand the whole NetBSD/Theo thing.  I know the problem to be deeper than 
Xthat. I refuse to stand up for anyone other than myself.
X
XAnyhow, that all being said.  I know Theo will do what he wants regardless
Xof what anyone says.  He's always been like this.  It's not necessarily
Xa criticism because you have to follow your heart.  Unfortunately, your
Xheart sometimes becomes overshadowed by feelings of hate and anger and
Xthose often cause a person to do things that he/she knows, deep down, 
Xare damaging.  I've been fighting those feelings for months now.  I 
Xrefuse to continue.
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XForwarded: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:01:28 -0600
XForwarded: "neil@doublesix.domino.org "
XReplied: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:01:22 -0600
XReplied: "Herb Peyerl  Chuck Cranor ,
XReplied: Theo de Raadt , pk@netbsd.org, jtc@netbsd.org,
XReplied: chuck@theos.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, mrg@splode.mame.mu.oz.au,
XReplied: amee@elf.bsdi.com, johns@theos.com, neil@doublesix.domino.org"
XReplied: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:48:10 -0600
XReplied: "Herb Peyerl  Chuck Cranor ,
XReplied: Theo de Raadt , pk@netbsd.org, jtc@netbsd.org,
XReplied: chuck@theos.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, mrg@splode.mame.mu.oz.au,
XReplied: amee@elf.bsdi.com, johns@theos.com"
XReturn-Path: hpeyerl@sidney.novatel.ca
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from sidney.novatel.ca by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA24049; Wed, 4 Oct 95 11:41:49 MDT
XReceived: from localhost.novatel.ca (localhost.novatel.ca [127.0.0.1]) by sidney.novatel.ca (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA13747; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 11:41:45 -0600
XMessage-Id: <199510041741.LAA13747@sidney.novatel.ca>
XX-Authentication-Warning: sidney.novatel.ca: Host localhost.novatel.ca didn't use HELO protocol
XTo: Chuck Cranor 
XCc: Theo de Raadt , pk@netbsd.org, jtc@netbsd.org,
X        chuck@theos.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, mrg@splode.mame.mu.oz.au,
X        amee@elf.bsdi.com, johns@theos.com
XSubject: Re: charles 
XFrom: Herb Peyerl 
XMime-Version: 1.0
XContent-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
XContent-Id: <13744.812828503.1@sidney.novatel.ca>
XDate: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 11:41:43 -0600
XSender: hpeyerl@beer.org
X
XChuck Cranor   wrote:
X >    I think you've got a point, but you are not looking at the full
X > picture or addressing all the issues which are in question.   [I do agree
X > that Theo needs to be more careful about what he says to people because
X > it is easy to hurt someone's feelings without meaning to -- especially
X > over the computer (e.g. calling you stupid was pretty rude).]
X
XI don't disagree with anything you've said.  However, I know that Theo's 
Xangriness does not come from the split that was foisted on him. Theo was
Xangry long before that happened. In fact, as long as I've known Theo, he's
Xbeen angry.  
X
XI agree that Theo is not the kind of person to manage OpenBSD as much as
Xhe wants to, to show the world that he is capable.  Unfortunately, I
Xfeel that this would not only reflect poorly on NetBSD, it would make
Xthe whole *BSD effort look worse than it presently does and will just 
Xcause more people to use Linux. I feel that with the existance of
XOpenBSD, everyone will lose in the end.  The end that I hope is not as
Xinevitable as all the evidence shows.
X
XYou will note that I've deliberately skirted the issue of Charles/Theo
Xand the whole NetBSD/Theo thing.  I know the problem to be deeper than 
Xthat. I refuse to stand up for anyone other than myself.
X
XAnyhow, that all being said.  I know Theo will do what he wants regardless
Xof what anyone says.  He's always been like this.  It's not necessarily
Xa criticism because you have to follow your heart.  Unfortunately, your
Xheart sometimes becomes overshadowed by feelings of hate and anger and
Xthose often cause a person to do things that he/she knows, deep down, 
Xare damaging.  I've been fighting those feelings for months now.  I 
Xrefuse to continue.
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XReturn-Path: deraadt@theos.com
XReturn-Path: 
XReceived: from LOCALHOST.theos.com by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0)
X	id AA24084; Wed, 4 Oct 95 12:48:15 MDT
XMessage-Id: <9510041848.AA24084@theos.com>
XTo: Herb Peyerl 
XCc: Chuck Cranor , Theo de Raadt ,
X        pk@netbsd.org, jtc@netbsd.org, chuck@theos.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov,
X        mrg@splode.mame.mu.oz.au, amee@elf.bsdi.com, johns@theos.com
XSubject: Re: charles 
XIn-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 04 Oct 1995 11:41:43 MDT."
X             <199510041741.LAA13747@sidney.novatel.ca> 
XX-Copyright: (C) 1995 Theo de Raadt. Forwarding not permitted without prior permission.
XDate: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:48:10 -0600
XFrom: Theo de Raadt 
X
X> Anyhow, that all being said.  I know Theo will do what he wants regardless
X> of what anyone says.  He's always been like this.  It's not necessarily
X> a criticism because you have to follow your heart.  Unfortunately, your
X> heart sometimes becomes overshadowed by feelings of hate and anger and
X> those often cause a person to do things that he/she knows, deep down, 
X> are damaging.  I've been fighting those feelings for months now.  I 
X> refuse to continue.
X
XHerb, you really are going far too far.
X
Xi have been trying to get back in for ages. At least since April 22
X(perhaps earlier, but I had not switched to the save-all-email
Xmentality yet.)
X
Xi am tempted to release all the mail you have sent me saying "my god,
XCharles REALLY pissed me off today". Or "Charles REALLY pissed Jason
Xoff today". Or "Chris has just finally HAD it with Charles". etc. were
Xyou pissed off at charles because of me?  i got sick of your promises
Xthat "something is just about to happen, jtc told me so".
X
Xyou have gone at least as far as I ever did in `insensitivity'.  your
Xmail about my hatred is a serious malignment of my character.  I am
Xthinking about appending all your mail to that archive so that it
Xbecomes clear how much hatred there really is in you.  behind the
Xscenes you really have been a big player in this entire drama. and yet
Xwhenever the issues were about "facts of the case" you didn't want to
Xread my mail archives to see what the facts were.
X
Xyour base opinion on the entire matter is apparently `by taking this
Xpublic you are trying to destroy NetBSD and core'.  you have resisted
Xpaying attention to the facts, that
X	(1) the original reason for kicking me out was very wrong
X	(2) charles has done at least as much many more times than
X	    that
X	(3) every core member except charles has really tried to
X	    get me back in
X	(4) that i have done everything reasonable to get back in.
Xthis is just so stupidly obvious and apparent!
X
Xthere was only one issue with letting me in early which caused a
Xproblem: that personal and private mail could/would be held against
Xme. charles was adament that he wanted such mail to be used against me
Xif possible.  because the mail to jonathan was of such a kind. and
Xguess what? i am now quite prepared to show you all for the hypocrites
Xyou are -- by airing YOUR personal and private mail.
X
Xi think, herb, that you have forgotten that it is now essentially "too
Xlate".
X
Xyou have sent mail like this time and time again Herb, always saying i
Xwas trying to destroy core and netbsd.  sorry -- that is just not the
Xcase.  you have been maligning ME in public.  hey, Herb, if you really
Xcare for the correct opinion on what is going on -- phone Andy.
X
Xit is not my fault when core cannot and will not communicate with me
Xlike others, while they say they are doing so.  you say i am doing it
Xout of hatred.  be careful, Herb -- i am quite tempted to prove you
Xwrong by showing a bunch of mail between ourselves (if i do so i will
Xappend all my mail to you as